VIA Rail network developments

[acottawa]

Ok, but most people don’t want to travel at the most inconvenient possible times.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Ok, but most people don’t want to travel at the most inconvenient possible times.

There are 10 trips a day per direction. Surely, there are sufficient choices that you don't have to travel on the most expensive run.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There are 10 trips a day per direction. Surely, there are sufficient choices that you don't have to travel on the most expensive run.

I wasn’t quoting the most expensive run. I was actually quoting the cheapest escape fare on the day I want to travel.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I wasn’t quoting the most expensive run. I was actually quoting the cheapest escape fare on the day I want to travel.

The trains must be almost sold out for that day. All the more reason for HFR, so more seats are available.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Not sure how it would make life more convenient. You would have to load a large amount onto Presto, wait 24 hours for the card to update and then go buy your ticket.

Originally Posted by zzptichka

It's actually 48 hours and it's for any amount. Just Presto things.

It's only 24h for buses/points of contact that are not directly wired to the internet. And it also depends on the agency. OC Transpo for example updates it's bus fleet once every 4-6 hours with equipment they've elected to purchase.

The fare gates at O-train stations have a wired connection, so if you load online, and go to a station good chances you'll be let in (though ti may take a few minutes, can't say the exact time it takes to update). Plus if you load your card in person that information is loaded onto the chip directly (Shopper's Service centre, at a ticket machine for example).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The trains must be almost sold out for that day. All the more reason for HFR, so more seats are available.

Maybe, but by definition the most popular times and days are still going to be the most popular. Driving is basically a fixed price, so when most people look at potential tickets they are comparing a fixed price to a highly variable price that is likely to be on the high side at the popular times they want to travel.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by corynv

It's only 24h for buses/points of contact that are not directly wired to the internet. And it also depends on the agency. OC Transpo for example updates it's bus fleet once every 4-6 hours with equipment they've elected to purchase.

The fare gates at O-train stations have a wired connection, so if you load online, and go to a station good chances you'll be let in (though ti may take a few minutes, can't say the exact time it takes to update). Plus if you load your card in person that information is loaded onto the chip directly (Shopper's Service centre, at a ticket machine for example).

So a train passenger would have to physically present themselves at a station to load a significant amount of money onto their card before physically presenting themselves at the train station to spend the money they just loaded. It is hard to see any scenario where that is more convenient then just buying the ticket online or at the station.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by corynv

It's only 24h for buses/points of contact that are not directly wired to the internet. And it also depends on the agency. OC Transpo for example updates it's bus fleet once every 4-6 hours with equipment they've elected to purchase.

The fare gates at O-train stations have a wired connection, so if you load online, and go to a station good chances you'll be let in (though ti may take a few minutes, can't say the exact time it takes to update). Plus if you load your card in person that information is loaded onto the chip directly (Shopper's Service centre, at a ticket machine for example).

Originally Posted by zzptichka

It's actually 48 hours and it's for any amount. Just Presto things.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

24 hours? Is it because larger amount takes longer? Also I thought the price wouldn’t be too high.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Something just occur to me: Would VIA ever let people use Presto cards to board the train between TO and OTT if HFR becomes a thing between the two cities? I was thinking that it’d make people’s lives convenient.

It's only about 4 hours in Ottawa for buses.

That said, there are dozens of ways to alleviate that problem if you were to use PRESTO with VIA. Examples include: wired connections, terminals to load/update your card, sync the system updates with departure times, etc.

That all said though, it doesn't make a lot of sense for VIA to try and use PRESTO (or for Metrolinx to try and convince VIA to use PRESTO). For starters, VIA is a federal agency and Metrolinx is a provincial agency. The corridor also spans the entire length of Windsor to Quebec City, so anything on the Quebec side wouldn't really have much use for PRESTO. It also doesn't make any sense for VIA to use a system that loses them revenue. If anything, VIA would launch their own smartcard system that may or may not be compatible with other systems (like PRESTO, or Opus, etc.) But finally, like others have mentioned, it's just not very convenient. Unless you have a rail pass (which probably constitutes a small minority of rail users: travelers who wouldn't necessarily be using it on the corridor, or business people) it's kind of a hassle to have to load large amounts of money onto a smart card to somehow pay for long distance journeys like that. Even then, is the current system really that big of a hassle, even for regular travelers?

In the end, touchless payments using debit and credit cards are common place now, and for VIA's purposes, that would already be perfect if they wanted to implement some kind of tap-on tap-off payment system. We don't need a whole new smart card system for a really niche use case.

Edit: That's if VIA wanted to implement a whole system for payment, but for just giving passengers the option of using PRESTO, there's still no advantage to that for the same reasons as above.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So a train passenger would have to physically present themselves at a station to load a significant amount of money onto their card before physically presenting themselves at the train station to spend the money they just loaded. It is hard to see any scenario where that is more convenient then just buying the ticket online or at the station.

No, it would be near real time, since the gates are connected to a physical network.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

No, it would be near real time, since the gates are connected to a physical network.

But it is only real time if you physically present yourself at a station after making the large upload.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But it is only real time if you physically present yourself at a station after making the large upload.

And why would Via change their system to Presto just for the people in the GTHA and Ottawa and leave everyone else out in the cold?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

And why would Via change their system to Presto just for the people in the GTHA and Ottawa and leave everyone else out in the cold?

Well I was envisioning that Presto would be widely used throughout Ontario.

[lrt's friend]

I just looked at fares at a presumably popular dates, leave Friday, return Sunday, July 19th, July 21st. Escape fares Ottawa-Toronto on July 19th ranged from $49 to $88. On July 21st, they ranged from $71 to $88, even on a train with only 4 seats left. Exactly the same price range over the long weekend in August. Most of the trains offered business class at $99, which I consider a tremendous bargain.

With tax, it is $223 return business class including free hot meals and alcoholic drinks. At $71 one way, it is $160 Escape fare return including tax.

To drive for gas alone, I figure I would spend $100+ which ignores wear and tear on your vehicle and parking in downtown Toronto. The last time I did that at a downtown hotel, it cost me $50 per night.

[Truenorth00]

Fares should and will be different under HFR. We are talking a doubling of the number of seats offered from the looks of it.

I would love to see Presto and Opus card integration. Probably just as a ticket purchase/load option in the beginning.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Ok, but most people don’t want to travel at the most inconvenient possible times.

That's what makes blanket statements a lie. So the cheapest fares then is not $220+. People always do this bullshit with every discussion about VIA. Worst is comparison to Porter basic fares which literally do not allow carry-on and charge per checked bag. Great for a day meeting. But not a comparable offering for any other situation.

The good thing is that HFR (if it ever happens) would end this. The amount of seats offered would be large enough to smooth out the most extreme peaks. And you'd just have to wait 1-2 hrs for a cheaper fare.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Ok, but most people don’t want to travel at the most inconvenient possible times.

Originally Posted by GoTrans

And why would Via change their system to Presto just for the people in the GTHA and Ottawa and leave everyone else out in the cold?

Who is everyone else? If you want provincial transit funding in Ontario, you have to use Presto eventually. Montreal and Quebec City use Opus. Those date cards would cover most VIA rail riders. And with HFR, highly likely you'll just buy tickets from a fare vending machine than a counter. The fare system would be simplified to make that possible. Just like elsewhere in the world.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Who is everyone else? If you want provincial transit funding in Ontario, you have to use Presto eventually. Montreal and Quebec City use Opus. Those date cards would cover most VIA rail riders. And with HFR, highly likely you'll just buy tickets from a fare vending machine than a counter. The fare system would be simplified to make that possible. Just like elsewhere in the world.

Ontario stopped trying to force municipalities to use Presto years ago.

Where else in the world do you pay for intercity trains with a pay-as-you-go transit card?

[acottawa]

I am not sure why “people travel on weekends” is a difficult concept to understand.

HFR (as described by Via) adds a lot of capacity on off-peak hours. It adds little capacity in peak hours (where service is pretty much hourly already). If the objective is to lure people out of their cars then there needs to be financially competitive trains when people want to travel.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I am not sure why “people travel on weekends” is a difficult concept to understand.

HFR (as described by Via) adds a lot of capacity on off-peak hours. It adds little capacity in peak hours (where service is pretty much hourly already). If the objective is to lure people out of their cars then there needs to be financially competitive trains when people want to travel.

The concept of peak and off-peak hours relates local and commuter transit. That is much less the case with intercity travel. As it stands with HFR, we are talking about increasing the number of trains from 10 to 15 between Ottawa and Toronto and 6 to 15 between Ottawa and Montreal. That still increases the number of seats available substantially. And when demand dictates, there is no reason why a 4 car train cannot be extended to a 6 car train.

It is easy to justify the economics of driving especially when hidden costs are ignored. That is up to personal choice. We will not see $50 round trip fares to Toronto if that is what you are expecting. By all means, pack 5 into your vehicle, stop at least once on the way to Toronto, and deal with Toronto traffic. VIA is not directed at you.

[CityTech]

Ottawa-Toronto line has seen massive ridership increases in past few years. Every time they add a new trip ridership increases to fill it. Clearly price isn't keeping people away.