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[esquire]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

so barring some other larger HQ relocation to DT Wpg

And that's practically an impossible scenario... when has it happened within living memory?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Biff

I know some on here are critical of "The SHED District" but not withstanding how it was created etc, etc...you gotta admit from the standpoint of new development in downtown centered around the arena you have 7 new towers in the last ten years. Glasshouse, Alt, TNS 1, TNS 2, Sutton Hotel, La Grande Residence and Wawanesa. Not to mention Hydro and essentially a new convention centre.

It has become quite the conglomeration of towers....almost like a big city downtown.

Very true. The SHED's towers may not have dramatic height, but there is something to be said for having a pile of shorter towers filling up previously dead/empty blocks.

Centrepoint feels a bit like an outlier in all of this, though... TNS is bubbling over with energy while Centrepoint is just out there all by itself on Portage.

[Biff]

When you are coming south down Princess towards Portage, you really get a downtown feel. There is depth in the towers that you really haven't felt before here in Winnipeg.

[Wpg_Guy]

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[drew]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

Sorry drew, but why so underwhelmed? I mean, the purpose of the building isn't to build a skyline, that's a byproduct... at 19 stories, it's still quality density at a good height downtown.

I'd prefer a surface lot, but this greatly improves what was there. Nor can you fault Wawanesa for wanting to be near the action rather than a surface lot, which I'm sure was proposed by other developers.

It's a nice building to be sure - but it will just blend in to the surroundings where it is going. Permanently overshawdowed by the taller Hydro to the north, and the equally tall and more curvy TNS buildings to the east.

I dunno, I guess to me it is frustrating that this building will house a company whose current building stands right next to a giant surface lot, on what is probably (long term) a more important address and area of downtown. It just seems crazy to me that in order to develop here, you need to knock over something first. No one is (mostly) ever to just build on an empty lot.

To me, Wawanessa gets a way bigger bang for it's impact buck (visually) going with this same building at Main and Broadway. The City would be better for it too.

Now we keep the same empty lot at Main and Broadway, and just add to the pain with a less than attractive (soon to be) empty building.

I guess on one hand I am "yay - bright shiny toy!" and on the other hand kinda depressed with the goings on in the downtown development.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by drew

Now we keep the same empty lot at Main and Broadway, and just add to the pain with a less than attractive (soon to be) empty building.

I guess on one hand I am "yay - bright shiny toy!" and on the other hand kinda depressed with the goings on in the downtown development.

Yeah, no question that a similar building on the lot at Main and Broadway would have been preferable. It would have had a big impact on two of the city's main routes as opposed to being tucked away on two side streets.

But still, I am optimistic that the current Wawanesa building will be put to good use. The local commercial real estate market has been remarkably effective at finding new purposes for older, tired buildings. Even really worn out buildings like the former MB Housing on Smith, or the Medical Arts Building. I'm optimistic that some user will be eager to get their hands on Wawanesa, although yeah, the parking lot will remain, I suppose.

[trueviking]

^ there is no question that a tower at Broadway and Main would have had much higher visual and functional impact. It would be part of a campus of stately buildings like Manitoba Club, Hotel Fort Garry, Union Station, on a beautiful tree lined, pedestrian focussed street. It would hover over the forks almost aligned with the axis to the pedestrian bridge and be an amazing counterpoint in the skyline to the CMHR tower. It would be a great backdrop to the upper fort garry park and a gateway to downtown. It would stand alone in the sky and be visible from Portage and Main, St. Boniface and across downtown.

That being said, I completely undeerstand why they would move. I'm sure they felt isolated and being connected to the fan fare of TNS must be attractive. Its on the skywalk, which everyone loves. I'm sure they feel more like part of the action there. But it is kind of lost being one of five towers burried on a back street.

[Wigglez]

With downtown Winnipeg slowly moving down Graham towards the Bay building, I cant wait to see what is done with that giant thing...

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Wigglez

With downtown Winnipeg slowly moving down Graham towards the Bay building, I cant wait to see what is done with that giant thing...

It does really feel like the nexus is shifting. 30 years ago P&M was unquestionably the nerve centre. These days, P&M is still the centre but it is way less dominant.

Let's say that a big professional firm currently not in Winnipeg decided to open up here... for example, McKinsey. In 1989 they would have without question aimed for Portage and Main. These days it wouldn't be a lock, they could just as easily end up at TNS.

But that said, Hydro Place and all the SHED developments to date haven't done anything to improve The Bay, although maybe they've slowed down the decline?

[roccerfeller]

It's an absolutely beautiful building and in a great location. I do wish it was in main as well, knock out the parking lot as well as be impactful from a skyline perspective. There must have been something that took them to TNS and perhaps the land was cheaper as well as TN making it attractive I'm sure played a role. It's all good, pretty amazing that TNS will be 5 towers in the end. Wow. I think these are pretty impressive developments for a city of this size and it means the streak of cranes downtown will continue until 2023!

[esquire]

Re: land cheaper at TNS

Wasn't there some sort of SHED TIF that involved a tax break? I should remember this but I've forgotten the details... I thought there was some form of indirect subsidy here.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by esquire

It does really feel like the nexus is shifting. 30 years ago P&M was unquestionably the nerve centre. These days, P&M is still the centre but it is way less dominant.

Let's say that a big professional firm currently not in Winnipeg decided to open up here... for example, McKinsey. In 1989 they would have without question aimed for Portage and Main. These days it wouldn't be a lock, they could just as easily end up at TNS.

But that said, Hydro Place and all the SHED developments to date haven't done anything to improve The Bay, although maybe they've slowed down the decline?

I could see a couple scenarios in which P&M retook the crown of undisputed nerve centre. For example, if Harvard were able to attract a really big time tenant to help develop 416 Main. That and Richardson moving to develop their lots to the immediate east of their tower. If both the SHED and P&M nodes were reaching critical mass, it wouldn't be unfathomable to imagine the two big lots on Graham being developed. But at that point we're really taking about attaining critical mass which won't be for a while. But when we do, especially in terms of residential, look out. Downtown will see a huge explosion

[Wigglez]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

I could see a couple scenarios in which P&M retook the crown of undisputed nerve centre. For example, if Harvard were able to attract a really big time tenant to help develop 416 Main. That and Richardson moving to develop their lots to the immediate east of their tower. If both the SHED and P&M nodes were reaching critical mass, it wouldn't be unfathomable to imagine the two big lots on Graham being developed. But at that point we're really taking about attaining critical mass which won't be for a while. But when we do, especially in terms of residential, look out. Downtown will see a huge explosion

P&M COULD* become the undisputed nerve center of Winnipeg again, however there's a few big differences between P&M and TNS right now.

P&M - Major development at P&M takes forever. Projects are announced then cancelled. Delays/redesigns/visions for the lots lock them up for decades while the owners "wait" for the right thing.

With P&M set to be closed from pedestrians forever theres no value to the intersection beyond "tall buildings go here"

TNS - Has a single organized vision for the area and people actively looking for new tenants and opportunities. It's turning into a rich area filled with offices/hotels/apartments/condos all in a pedestrian friendly environment.

I mean... Just look at the timeline of an open gravel parking lot right at P&M vs this entire TNS development. Maybe when they finally "totally for reals this time" figure out what they want to put there P&M will get some life in it. But until then TNS is actually doing things vs talking about maybe one day sorta doing something.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Wigglez

P&M COULD* become the undisputed nerve center of Winnipeg again, however there's a few big differences between P&M and TNS right now.

P&M - Major development at P&M takes forever. Projects are announced then cancelled. Delays/redesigns/visions for the lots lock them up for decades while the owners "wait" for the right thing.

With P&M set to be closed from pedestrians forever theres no value to the intersection beyond "tall buildings go here"

TNS - Has a single organized vision for the area and people actively looking for new tenants and opportunities. It's turning into a rich area filled with offices/hotels/apartments/condos all in a pedestrian friendly environment.

I mean... Just look at the timeline of an open gravel parking lot right at P&M vs this entire TNS development. Maybe when they finally "totally for reals this time" figure out what they want to put there P&M will get some life in it. But until then TNS is actually doing things vs talking about maybe one day sorta doing something.

I don't disagree for the most part. You're right, it could happen but anything going on there is total speculation until the stars finally align. I disagree with the notion that without pedestrian access it's just a place for tall buildings, and I also reject the notion that the intersection will remain closed to pedestrians indefinitely. There will come a time, make no mistake, when the demand simply is too great for the land adjacent to the intersection (i.e. 416 and Richardson) and then things will be built. It might not even be that long before it happens either, we don't know yet. As you so concisely reiterated, yes, P&M COULD become the undisputed nerve centre of the city again. Honestly one major project would probably do it. The other consideration in all this, that we seem to have forgotten in our excitement about Wawanesa, is that Skip still has their corporate HQ on the table. If it does end up on Parcel 4, as has been discussed, I would suggest that that would probably do a lot for the P&M area as well, perhaps even driving residential and hotel demand in the immediate area. With the Exchange District so close, P&M has an added advantage in its proximity to a growing residential neighbourhood whereas TN sort of had to create one in the SHED to serve their developments.

But all speculation of course, I look forward to the next announcement!

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Biff

I know some on here are critical of "The SHED District" but not withstanding how it was created etc, etc

The critique is the SHED District essentially diverts money from property taxes from general funds to the revenue line of one of Manitoba's highest revenue generated, privately held companies. Sure it is nice to see new buildings but these aren't net new people downtown but rather just moving the existing chairs around. It isn't the type of growth our downtown really needed.

Originally Posted by esquire

Wasn't there some sort of SHED TIF that involved a tax break? I should remember this but I've forgotten the details... I thought there was some form of indirect subsidy here.

Pretty sure they essentially pay property taxes to True North instead of the City of Winnipeg. It is the diversion of those tax funds to a privately held company which is an issue and further that it is almost exclusively one company that is benefiting from the SHED.

[Wigglez]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

I don't disagree for the most part. You're right, it could happen but anything going on there is total speculation until the stars finally align. I disagree with the notion that without pedestrian access it's just a place for tall buildings, and I also reject the notion that the intersection will remain closed to pedestrians indefinitely. There will come a time, make no mistake, when the demand simply is too great for the land adjacent to the intersection (i.e. 416 and Richardson) and then things will be built. It might not even be that long before it happens either, we don't know yet. As you so concisely reiterated, yes, P&M COULD become the undisputed nerve centre of the city again. Honestly one major project would probably do it. The other consideration in all this, that we seem to have forgotten in our excitement about Wawanesa, is that Skip still has their corporate HQ on the table. If it does end up on Parcel 4, as has been discussed, I would suggest that that would probably do a lot for the P&M area as well, perhaps even driving residential and hotel demand in the immediate area. With the Exchange District so close, P&M has an added advantage in its proximity to a growing residential neighbourhood whereas TN sort of had to create one in the SHED to serve their developments.

But all speculation of course, I look forward to the next announcement!

100% agree with this! Even now with TNS dominating I still feel like the land between P&M and the river is the most important space in the city. If Parcel 4 is developed as hoped then that area will be the key to connecting downtown Winnipeg with the Exchange and the Forks.

If that area were developed PROPERLY with density and quality then you could have a central connecting location between the Forks-P&M-Exchange, its value to the city would be immense.

The key word there though is properly... A few more horrific 2 story parkades and more of the Richardson Innovation Centers and that area will be another lost opportunity...

Note: no offense to the Innovation Center and its designer. It's an AMAZING design but that was always my fantasy development location... the potential value of that site/area is greater than what is going up there (IMO).

[PhongNguyen]

Wawanesa Insurance joinded True North Square. Fifth tower of True North Square is predicted to be completed in 2023
https://www.wawanesa.com/canada/news/wawanesa-true-north-square

[trueviking]

TNs is the shiny new bauble but it will never have the scale and importance of Portage and Main. 15,000 people work at PandM, another 1000 are about to live there. 130 floors of office right at the corner. A giant hotel.....compare that to 40 stories of office.

[Jeff]

All in all I'm just happy this HQ didnt get lured to that god awful Terracon business park on Kenaston! Winnipeg's downtown is too spread out and this major focus on TNS will hopefully give it a critical mass to maybe get some more reputable retailers downtown again!

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by Jeff

All in all I'm just happy this HQ didnt get lured to that god awful Terracon business park on Kenaston! Winnipeg's downtown is too spread out and this major focus on TNS will hopefully give it a critical mass to maybe get some more reputable retailers downtown again!

Like Holt Renfrew in Portage Place?

Seriously though, it will at least be a business vote of confidence to keep investing into Downtown, even amidst all the crime lately