Transit Fantasies

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

.................................
... I also feel that having the North Shore crossing further west is far more beneficial for the majority of those on the North Shore.

Crossing at the Iron Workers’ Memorial is far too much backtracking to access downtown and Richmond while accessing Burnaby and east is no difference either way (save for those going from Lynn Valley area to Burnaby).

Very much so. Too bad the harbour is so much deeper (and so much costlier to build a tunnel) further west.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Very much so. Too bad the harbour is so much deeper (and so much costlier to build a tunnel) further west.

It's deeper for a direct Lonsdale-Downtown line, but, isn't it shallower again for the area of First Narrows?

[jbrizzy]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Thank you for the explanation
The strong points IMO in your plan are the Granville Island station option, and the direct route up Burrard (it is a very major street) and the direct routing to the east. Also, going down Willindon linking key points up to Metrotown is smart IMO.


However, permit me, this is not a criticism of your plan, but Metro's link-up the the subway at Arbutus and Broadway is a real plus.
The traffic interchange there will 'dynamize' the rrt system, encouraging gever more users (thus pax).
Where do you imagine your line's western terminus? West 4th?

Not sure how you missed it, but my proposal also has a terminus at Broadway and Arbutus to connect with the Millennium Line.

[jbrizzy]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

On my proposal a station could be added at Thurlow on the North side of False Creek before swinging west towards English Bay to address some of jbrizzy’s concerns, but I really feel that the west end needs true mass transit, especially given that it is often touted as one of the most dense neighborhoods in NA. Not to mention access to Stanley Park.

It is interesting how similar our proposals are. In general they are within the same line of thought.

Also I feel that Granville Island can be serviced well enough by the Vancouver Streetcar and potential access from Granville Street Bridge.

I also feel that having the North Shore crossing further west is far more beneficial for the majority of those on the North Shore.

Crossing at the Iron Workers’ Memorial is far too much backtracking to access downtown and Richmond while accessing Burnaby and east is no difference either way (save for those going from Lynn Valley area to Burnaby).

I agree that the Second Narrows routing would be backtracking for those west of Lonsdale heading downtown, however I might expect people in those areas to take the SeaBus or Lions Gate B-Line (for those further west) to head downtown.

That being said, by my estimate the trip from Lonsdale to Waterfront would be about the same as from Waterfront to Royal Oak, or about 21 minutes. With the current SeaBus trip time of 12 minutes, and 15-minute frequencies, the average trip including wait times is around 20 minutes (though that will be improved with the upcoming 10-minute frequencies), so about the same as a hypothetical Skytrain trip. However, anyone east of Lonsdale would see a shortened trip time to downtown.

It kind of depends on whether you see the current SeaBus crossing time as adequate, or as a barrier for people travelling between the North Shore and Downtown. I guess I'm under the impression that it is adequate, especially if a SkyTrain across the North Shore enhances peoples' access to it. I also believe a mid-inlet crossing is highly unlikely due to the topography and expected cost, so I went with the more "safe" option.

The Main-Marine B-Line shows the importance of cross-North Shore rapid transit, which this routing accomplishes. And if the Willingdon branch is constructed, it shortens travel times between the North Shore and Burnaby/Tri-Cities/SoF, as they won't have to travel all the way downtown to connect to the line.

It boils down to the question: do you want to replace the SeaBus, and make a 12-minute crossing a 4-minute crossing (or thereabouts), or would you prefer to maintain the 12-minute crossing while adding an additional crossing that draws more places into the overall network?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

It's deeper for a direct Lonsdale-Downtown line, but, isn't it shallower again for the area of First Narrows?

Yes, I believe it is. But would that not involve a very long tunnel anyway -- all the way under Stanley Park? That might be equally expensive. Let the engineers figure it out. $$$

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Difficult choice between Metro's plan, and Mr. jbrizzy's.
Both are great IMO.

Is it really a choice? Remember, both are just one branched route - turn it into a Willingdon-Stanley Park Line and an Arbutus-Ambleside Line, problem solved.

[officedweller]

At subway/SkyTrain speeds, a short loop through the West End isn't much of a delay.
There would be 5 stations on the Broadway Subway/Canada Line to downtown option.

I think stops at Davie Village and Denman/Stanley Park are desirable,
and a stop could serve Robson Street and the southern "Triangle West" area which still includes offices
(maybe that empty lot of Robson(!)).

I think that a Georgia & Burrard Station is too close to Burrard Station at Dunsmuir )(if they are not connected).

Since this is a fantasy thread, instead of the hub being at Waterfront, you could build a relatively deep station
under West Georgia between Granville & Seymour Streets (below Vancouver Centre mall's corridors)
that would serve as a "link" between Vancouver City Centre Station
and Granville Station (the Granville Station ticketing hall is under Seymour north of Georgia).


https://www.google.ca/maps/search/granville+%26+georgia/@49.2839611,-123.1223779,17z/data=!3m1!4b1

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Is it really a choice? Remember, both are just one branched route - turn it into a Willingdon-Stanley Park Line and an Arbutus-Ambleside Line, problem solved.

Where would they divide, or branch? This is really interesting.

Could you make a map or image such as those of Metro or jbrizzy?
The more heads, the merrier.
Many thanks is you could show us.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

So this was my suggestion for the 2050 transit plan.

>snip<

TrainLine2 by Ian, on Flickr

i doubt you'll be able to get permission to run under all that private land - especially through kits.

there's a simple reason why subways are run under streets - the city already owns the land

[scryer]

Originally Posted by officedweller

https://www.google.ca/maps/search/granville+%26+georgia/@49.2839611,-123.1223779,17z/data=!3m1!4b1

I think that a proper connection between the two stations like this is actually a logical way of preparing for the future. I'm just talking the tunneled connection, not the extra green line.

[trofirhen]

Thank you, Feathered Friend, for this excerpt from a post fby you about 1608 - 1618 West Georgia. This, along with several major new projects needs more "meet the street," bu more importantly, this part of town, Georgia West (here it meets the angle of Pender) warrants rrt service. Trams may be OK to Coal Harbour, but a bored rrt line down Georgia to Stanley Park is in order IMHO, with the West Georgia development boom on the cusp of happening.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/member.php?u=91348

[scottN]

Unfortunately with the north shore population centred around Lonsdale there really isn't a good option.

First narrows is no faster than sea bus
direct route is too deep, too expensive, too steep going up Lonsdale
Second narrows is a long detour, slower than Seabus to reach downtown.

I think a skytrain bridge at the second narrow is the best option. With the line heading south from the crossing to intersect the future Hastings line, millenium line and expo line. This would provide 1 transfer routes from the north shore to downtown, central broadway, brentwood, lougheed, new westminster and surrey. I think a lot of people actually commute to the north shore from these areas.

I would make the transfer points at Gilmore, then via Still Creek to Willingdon, BCIT and Metrotown. I think this route would allow the line to be mostly elevated with a few short tunnelled sections (for example the south approach to the bridge). The vicinity of Gilmore station is much less developed than Brentwood and would be more likely to accomodate a less expensive elevated routing. Gilmore is also a better station for connections to the west.

[jbrizzy]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Where would they divide, or branch? This is really interesting.

Could you make a map or image such as those of Metro or jbrizzy?
The more heads, the merrier.
Many thanks is you could show us.

Here's my go at combining the ideas of my and Metro's maps...

Kept my existing routing and added a dead-end branch to the West End. I considered branching from Waterfront towards Coal Harbour, but given the streetcar could serve this area, and it is more to the periphery, I chose an alternative route that branches after Burrard. Stations are at Bute, Bidwell (close to Robson/Denman ), and English Bay. In this scenario, trains could run Arbutus–Ambleside and Metrotown–English Bay.



This image shows a 500m radius from each station. Almost all of the downtown peninsula is covered by this alignment, except for mid-Davie Village/Beach Ave.

[Galaxy]

That line that ends currently to the West End is cool. What you may want to do is have it continue to run and back into that other line that goes to kits. Therefore providing full coverage to the entire downtown Peninsula. I also like the idea of giving more frequency to areas south of the Burrard Station with all the development that is coming to that area more people means more need for improved transit there. That map is looking really good though guys!

[Migrant_Coconut]

Nice. One small problem - that part of False Creek is a bit deep. Maybe run it from Burrard Bridge?


(Reddit via UBC)

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by scottN

Unfortunately with the north shore population centred around Lonsdale there really isn't a good option.

First narrows is no faster than sea bus
direct route is too deep, too expensive, too steep going up Lonsdale
Second narrows is a long detour, slower than Seabus to reach downtown.

I think a skytrain bridge at the second narrow is the best option. With the line heading south from the crossing to intersect the future Hastings line, millenium line and expo line. This would provide 1 transfer routes from the north shore to downtown, central broadway, brentwood, lougheed, new westminster and surrey. I think a lot of people actually commute to the north shore from these areas.

I would make the transfer points at Gilmore, then via Still Creek to Willingdon, BCIT and Metrotown. I think this route would allow the line to be mostly elevated with a few short tunnelled sections (for example the south approach to the bridge). The vicinity of Gilmore station is much less developed than Brentwood and would be more likely to accomodate a less expensive elevated routing. Gilmore is also a better station for connections to the west.

That would be ideal for a Second Narrows option. Thing is, the extra length of tunnel to get there might be as expensive as the direct route... and the vast majority of North Shore commuters come to and from the CoV.

Eh, screw it, I'll just bump waves' solution again.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Could you make a map or image such as those of Metro or jbrizzy?
The more heads, the merrier.
Many thanks is you could show us.

Eh, why the hell not. Though I got something slightly different in mind...

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

That line that ends currently to the West End is cool. What you may want to do is have it continue to run and back into that other line that goes to kits. Therefore providing full coverage to the entire downtown Peninsula. I also like the idea of giving more frequency to areas south of the Burrard Station with all the development that is coming to that area more people means more need for improved transit there. That map is looking really good though guys!

yes a downtown loop would be great

[lokyin]

jbrizzy: i like that plan and thanks for putting that idea together visually!

Hope you don't mind a couple thoughts. The Coal Harbour - English Bay spur is interesting. I think the "Coal Harbour" stop has a lot of potential with the much-increased density along that part of Georgia/Alberni in the coming years.

For the English Bay station, unless English Bay and West End would further densify, it's not easy to justify a skytrain station there (vs a streetcar) imo. Denman+Davie would need to have some serious development increases.

What if the Coal Harbour & English Bay areas are serviced by the streetcar in this way: Coming from the Olympic Demonstration line at around Science World, it continues up to Gastown, Waterfront, Coal Harbour, then down Denman to English Bay, then back east along Davie with connection to Burrard+Davie Stn, towards Pacific Blvd, then meet back to Science World for return to the line? Perhaps a streetcar extension that "loop tours" downtown peninsula would solve Coal Harbour & English Bay's needs enough?

For the Granville Island station, would it be better to place it just south of the "island" at the "entrance" so that it connects better to the Olympic Demonstration Line future streetcar?

Also, what about having it head south to terminate at Granville/Broadway instead of going out to Arbutus? That's IF the streetcar network connection is made at the Granville Island station already (which would be the same line as the Arbutus LRT). This would lessen the burden on Arbutus Stn.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by jbrizzy

Here's my go at combining the ideas of my and Metro's maps...

Nice - hits all the right spots for stations.
You could close the gap on Davie if the line ran under Thurlow instead of Burrard.
The line could take advantage of the curve on Melville to transition to Thurlow. Platform could be at an angle to Burrard Station's platforms.