West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by corynv

It's not just bus in general. Depending on the exact system we end up with, it's can be local bus> Rapibus > STO LRT> Otrain.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Three transfers -> local bus - Rapibus - STO LRT - C-Line

This scenario was discussed in the last few days

1. There’s an implicit assumption here of a forced transfer of Rapibus routes on to the STO LRT. But why would STO not keep the routes and have them continue to Ottawa to avoid a transfer? I know of nothing that requires them to force transfers on to the LRT.

2. The two LRTs will have more ridership than the Rapibus. Which means most riders aren’t facing three transfers.
3. Three transfers is entirely a Gatineau problem that has arisen out of a decision to not convert the Rapibus to LRT, and to then force transfers on to the LRT. What exactly is Ottawa’s obligation here?

Originally Posted by Acajack

All of the discussions about whether the City of Ottawa would allow or prefer a surface or underground, bus or LRT, infrastructure for STO in its CBD is basically moot, as the key question is who and how anything of the nature will get paid for.

Obviously it's extremely unlikely Ottawa/Ontario will pay, and getting Gatineau/Quebec to pay hundreds of millions for extra-territorial infrastructure seems like a huge longshot too - even if it will benefit tends of thousands of Gatineau/Quebec residents.

Exactly. Nobody has the funds to pay for grade separation in Ottawa, to benefit Gatineau residents. And I will suggest there’s no willingness to support that kind of disruption either. Just look at how unhappy people are about STO buses moving to Albert and Slater post-Confederation Line. And people think Ottawa Council and residents will just happily roll over and approve another parallel subway with half a decade more of disruption in the CBD and possibly financial obligations to Ottawa? Not happening.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Hey, we're even evoking banning STO buses from Ottawa streets on here. Which is probably a violation of a whole bunch of laws and regulations anyways, in addition to being politically impossible.

What violation? The City of Ottawa is well within its rights to control which transit authorities operate within its boundaries and on which roads buses travel.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

The Canada Line in Vancouver has a PPHPD of 5500 and it has a 9km subway tunnel. If Gatineau converted the Rapibus, they could get a far higher PPHPD.

1. PPHPD is a measure of capacity. Not demand. Converting a non-segregated bus corridor to a fully grade separated and segregated rail line would have higher PPHPD. This is not some great insight.
2. Now whether a converted Rapibus will see a dramatic growth in ridership is another question altogether.
3. Vacouver’s 5500 PPHPD is not impressive. There’s literally local bus routes in Toronto with ridership that high. You don’t need grade separated LRT for that. Vancouver built their ART network in anticipation of future growth I would assume. What is the end-state for Gatineau’s Rapibus corridor and what will demand look like then?

Originally Posted by Nowhere

By 2031, the Rapibus is forecasted to have a PPHPD comparable to the Confederation Line (see the map at the bottom of this document).

1. Don’t buy this prediction for a second. Especially in an environment where Gatineau has two other LRT corridors operating.
2. For the discussion at hand, ridership on the Rapibus corridor is not as relevant as how much of that would be heading in Ottawa. And that’s probably a minority fraction of total ridership.

Originally Posted by Nowhere

However, as you said, this won't happen anytime soon, since Québec has a provincial government that prefers funding highways to nowhere than public transit. Eventually, there will likely be no way around it like for the Confederation Line.

It’s not just Quebec. Nobody would fund a parallel transit line, less than a km from another subway, in another city, to support riders of a town in their province. And nobody would fund a parallel subway for a few thousand PPHPD. Anybody who believes otherwise is smoking something good.

Originally Posted by Nowhere

How would surface trams deal with all the events and protests that close Wellington ?

They won’t. There won’t be STO trams going through Ottawa’s CBD.

Nobody beyond railfans here has serious proposed something like this. And nobody with actual funding authority has shown any willingness to fund something this harebrained.

Originally Posted by Nowhere

How would the trams deal with the drivers that will crash their car in them, closing the whole line every time ?

As above. This is not going to be a problem on the Ottawa side. And as you’ll see nowhere has Gatineau proposed a fully-segregated corridor for its LRTs. Nobody seems particularly about the vulnerability of LRTs on the Gatineau side to a car crash.

Originally Posted by Nowhere

How would the trains share the Portage Bridge with the large amount of buses coming from the Rapibus ?

This is not an Ottawa problem.

Also, dedicated lanes and strict restrictions on which bus routes go across the bridge. Not every bus will simply be allowed to go across. STO will have to live with restrictions on numbers of buses allowed across. Maybe they can buy up some used double-deckers from STO.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

As above. This is not going to be a problem on the Ottawa side. And as you’ll see nowhere has Gatineau proposed a fully-segregated corridor for its LRTs. Nobody seems particularly about the vulnerability of LRTs on the Gatineau side to a car crash.

Considering how accident-prone the Rapibus corridor is, I wonder if they should be a little concerned? Although, I don't know how the Rapibus compares to other at-grade transit systems so maybe it is still a non-issue.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

That and stringing catenary wires along Confederation Boulevard

That is a given. The Ottawa Electric Railway was forbidden from running streetcars in front of the Parliament Buildings from Bank to Confederation Square for most of the company's period of existence.

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

1. PPHPD is a measure of capacity. Not demand. Converting a non-segregated bus corridor to a fully grade separated and segregated rail line would have higher PPHPD. This is not some great insight.
2. Now whether a converted Rapibus will see a dramatic growth in ridership is another question altogether.
3. Vacouver’s 5500 PPHPD is not impressive. There’s literally local bus routes in Toronto with ridership that high. You don’t need grade separated LRT for that. Vancouver built their ART network in anticipation of future growth I would assume. What is the end-state for Gatineau’s Rapibus corridor and what will demand look like then?


1. Don’t buy this prediction for a second. Especially in an environment where Gatineau has two other LRT corridors operating.
2. For the discussion at hand, ridership on the Rapibus corridor is not as relevant as how much of that would be heading in Ottawa. And that’s probably a minority fraction of total ridership.



It’s not just Quebec. Nobody would fund a parallel transit line, less than a km from another subway, in another city, to support riders of a town in their province. And nobody would fund a parallel subway for a few thousand PPHPD. Anybody who believes otherwise is smoking something good.



They won’t. There won’t be STO trams going through Ottawa’s CBD.

Nobody beyond railfans here has serious proposed something like this. And nobody with actual funding authority has shown any willingness to fund something this harebrained.



As above. This is not going to be a problem on the Ottawa side. And as you’ll see nowhere has Gatineau proposed a fully-segregated corridor for its LRTs. Nobody seems particularly about the vulnerability of LRTs on the Gatineau side to a car crash.



This is not an Ottawa problem.

Also, dedicated lanes and strict restrictions on which bus routes go across the bridge. Not every bus will simply be allowed to go across. STO will have to live with restrictions on numbers of buses allowed across. Maybe they can buy up some used double-deckers from STO.

I guess I should have been more clear.

When I said that converting the Rapibus could get a far higher PPHPD, I meant that all the trains from the converted Rapibus, Aylmer and the Plateau could share the same tunnel, which would indeed strongly increase ridership in the tunnel.

When I said that Québec has an anti-transit government, I meant that they wouldn't fund the Rapibus conversion. The tunnel would of course have to be paid by the Feds, but this won't happen anytime soon.

I don't know why you said that nobody beyond railfans here want to run the STO trams on Wellington. That's exactly what the city of Gatineau is planning to do. Québec provincial government is even willing to fund 60% of it, despite what you said.

I don't know where you saw that Gatineau LRT will run in a fully segregated corridor. They want to run the trams along the sidewalk, making them very vulnerable to the large amount of turning cars on Aylmer Road.

The map I linked showed that the Rapibus ridership is largely heading to Ottawa downtown. I'm gonna believe the official ridership forecast from the city of Ottawa over what a random user on a forum believes.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

1. There’s an implicit assumption here of a forced transfer of Rapibus routes on to the STO LRT. But why would STO not keep the routes and have them continue to Ottawa to avoid a transfer? I know of nothing that requires them to force transfers on to the LRT.

Originally Posted by Horus

So I went to the public information session on Monday evening in Aylmer. They were showing those videos referenced a few posts back and had some people there to explain the options and answer questions.

Most of the information seemed to be in the "this is what we are going to do" domain as opposed to the "this is how we're going to do it". They didn't seem to have answers for some of the specific design or implementation details, such as getting past the Champlain bridge, how connections to Lyon station would work, etc..

Questionnaire is up on the STO website for public feedback.
http://www.sto.ca/index.php?id=792&L=en#c12509

Originally Posted by Horus

I did also ask about coordination between the existing Rapibus and the proposed LRT. In the example where LRT is used along Aylmer/Taché, that transfer of Rapibus riders to LRT would be at a newly constructed UQO station on the south side of Boul Taché. I have to admit that I was quite surprised by that proposal.

There's the thread history of the (up to) 3 transfer and concept of forced Rapibus transfer to LRT. At the Transit upgrade information session I was told by the presenters that in the event an LRT solution is selected, it would use the centre lanes of the Portage bridge. Buses would then not be able to use those lanes. The solution suggested was that Rapibus routes would terminate at UQO with the passengers being pushed into the LRT vehicles at that point. It's important to note that it is the Ottawa-bound Rapibus routes that would do that (Present-day Route 100 would not do that)

[Horus]

Originally Posted by agl

I went on Monday night as well.

I asked a consultant/staff member about the Portage Bridge to Lyon station options and the potential for a tunnel and she replied that everything is on the table, however I believe I heard her say it's not part of the current study?!? Of course, any tunnel for Gatineau transit in Ottawa would require almost 100% federal financing, as mentioned above, but I would have hoped this was part of the analysis.

Originally Posted by Horus

Most of the information seemed to be in the "this is what we are going to do" domain as opposed to the "this is how we're going to do it". They didn't seem to have answers for some of the specific design or implementation details, such as getting past the Champlain bridge, how connections to Lyon station would work, etc..

One point that is being glossed over here is that the STO study has unilaterally decided that Portage bridge will be used for whatever technology is decided upon from this evaluation process.

While the rationale for that choice makes sense, it is a bit presumptuous to assume that STO would be granted exclusive use of 2 lanes of that bridge, especially if those lanes are converted to surface rail.

My impression is that there has not been any regard for the detail of how any new STO service would connect to Confederation Line. The only definitive statement has only been that the new system will make that connection, but with no indication as to how.

I can't imagine that if the final network selection was the bus-only option, that it would be easy to navigate bi-articulated buses (as proposed) from the bridge to Lyon station and back using the same route STO is planning to use once their soon-to-be implemented re-routing changes take place following the Confed Line opening.

I don't know if anyone else on this board attended an information session and got a better feeling that there has been any consideration as to how a new system would work in Ottawa. I certainly did not get that feeling. It seemed to just be "each of these options will go to Ottawa. It'll be great!".

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by Horus

There's the thread history of the (up to) 3 transfer and concept of forced Rapibus transfer to LRT. At the Transit upgrade information session I was told by the presenters that in the event an LRT solution is selected, it would use the centre lanes of the Portage bridge. Buses would then not be able to use those lanes. The solution suggested was that Rapibus routes would terminate at UQO with the passengers being pushed into the LRT vehicles at that point. It's important to note that it is the Ottawa-bound Rapibus routes that would do that (Present-day Route 100 would not do that)

Each tram would only be able to hold 260 passengers. That's what the actual Trillium Line trains can hold. There's no way we can fit everyone from the Rapibus, Aylmer and the Plateau on these small trains.

[harls]

If only we had some sort of unified transit system under one agency, instead of three levels of government (Ontario, Quebec, Feds).. we could direct all our grievances to one sole entity.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

Each tram would only be able to hold 260 passengers. That's what the actual Trillium Line trains can hold. There's no way we can fit everyone from the Rapibus, Aylmer and the Plateau on these small trains.

I agree - it's a very poorly constructed plan.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by harls

If only we had some sort of unified transit system under one agency, instead of three levels of government (Ontario, Quebec, Feds).. we could direct all our grievances to one sole entity.

That's just crazy talk.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Horus

That's just crazy talk.

I know, I know.. I'll get my head out of the clouds now..

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

When I said that converting the Rapibus could get a far higher PPHPD, I meant that all the trains from the converted Rapibus, Aylmer and the Plateau could share the same tunnel, which would indeed strongly increase ridership in the tunnel.

Which is still overkill for the amount of ridership going into Ottawa. You seem to be almost assuming that peak capacity in Gatineau should be equal to peak capacity in Ottawa. I would ask why that is necessary.

Originally Posted by Nowhere

When I said that Québec has an anti-transit government, I meant that they wouldn't fund the Rapibus conversion.

Why would they fund something that Gatineau never asked for?

Originally Posted by Nowhere

The tunnel would of course have to be paid by the Feds, but this won't happen anytime soon.

What transit project has ever been 100% funded by the feds without some specific issue? Why the heck would the feds fund a parallel transit tunnel through Ottawa's CBD, when they already partially funded the DOTT?

Originally Posted by Nowhere

I don't know why you said that nobody beyond railfans here want to run the STO trams on Wellington. That's exactly what the city of Gatineau is planning to do. Québec provincial government is even willing to fund 60% of it, despite what you said.

None of their current plans show any running through Ottawa’s CBDs. That early study is nowhere close to what’s being discussed today. Read it. It’s a study based around the current transit network and what corridors should be prioritized. None of it discusses running LRT through Ottawa. Wellington is on the map because it’s part of the current STO network. It’s quite the assumption to then extrapolate that they want to and would be allowed to build LRT through Ottawa.

Also, please show where the Quebec government has committed to funding a plan which involves running through Ottawa’s CBDs.

Originally Posted by Nowhere

I don't know where you saw that Gatineau LRT will run in a fully segregated corridor.

Never said they did.

Originally Posted by Nowhere

The map I linked showed that the Rapibus ridership is largely heading to Ottawa downtown. I'm gonna believe the official ridership forecast from the city of Ottawa over what a random user on a forum believes.

Which map? I can’t see any link that says “the Rapibus ridership is largely heading to Ottawa downtown”. A thicker line is not evidence of “largely heading”. It’s a relative volumetric indication. Not evidence that the majority of Rapibus riders are bound for Ottawa. If you had the proportion of Rapibus ridership heading into Ottawa, I’d really be curious.

Originally Posted by Horus

There's the thread history of the (up to) 3 transfer and concept of forced Rapibus transfer to LRT. At the Transit upgrade information session I was told by the presenters that in the event an LRT solution is selected, it would use the centre lanes of the Portage bridge. Buses would then not be able to use those lanes. The solution suggested was that Rapibus routes would terminate at UQO with the passengers being pushed into the LRT vehicles at that point. It's important to note that it is the Ottawa-bound Rapibus routes that would do that (Present-day Route 100 would not do that)

Right. So based on their preliminary assumption that they would force 100% of Ottawa bound riders on to the LRT, a fraction of all STO riders would get three transfers. Specifically, a set of riders who use feeder service to access the Rapibus corridor. And that is a very specific situation that is addressable.

Set up express buses and nobody has to transfer on to Rapibus routes saving a transfer. Or allow specific Rapibus routes to loop through Ottawa on an alternative bridge and a transfer onto the STO LRT is saved. It’s way to and there are two few people in this category to get worked up about “OMG! Three transfers.”

And again, this is not an Ottawa problem. STO could also decide to convert the Rapibus to LRT…..something I suggested pages back.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

Each tram would only be able to hold 260 passengers. That's what the actual Trillium Line trains can hold. There's no way we can fit everyone from the Rapibus, Aylmer and the Plateau on these small trains.

Really nothing that says they can't pick larger trams. Still early days. We should expect major changes. Vehicle size, possibly more grade separation. Even technology used. Maybe Plateau stays with buses and all the money is spent on an Aylmer LRT built to a higher standard.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

1.


What violation? The City of Ottawa is well within its rights to control which transit authorities operate within its boundaries and on which roads buses travel.

Does the City of Ottawa really have this authority? ISTM it is more under provincial rules and even some federal (Canada Transportation Act) and even some cross border like IFTA...

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by harls

I know, I know.. I'll get my head out of the clouds now..

Is a joint venture between S.T.O. and OC Transpo really infeasible in any way?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Is a joint venture between S.T.O. and OC Transpo really infeasible in any way?

They currently have an agreement to work on inter-city transit together which is a start.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Does the City of Ottawa really have this authority? ISTM it is more under provincial rules and even some federal (Canada Transportation Act) and even some cross border like IFTA...

Yes it does. The city gets to decide where bus traffic goes. And which bus authorities can operate public conveyances in its boundaries. Especially which bus operators can run transit services that effectively compete with OC Transpo for passengers.

Not just Ottawa either. Try starting up a private transit service in Toronto and see how far you get.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This discussion is what happens when there is a lack of cooperation in building a rapid transit network.

In a way it was Gatineau's fault because they expressed no interest in LRT when Ottawa was making its move.

That was a missed opportunity to make more rationale decisions on how everything would interconnect and serve everybody the best. Ottawa went ahead without any consideration of Gatineau demand. It was right in the early C-Line planning reports that STO was excluded even in capacity decisions. I shook my head on that decision.

Now that Gatineau wants to be on board, we all better start looking at integration for the future.

It cannot have zero impact on Ottawa. Downtown Ottawa is still the main destination and for the sake of downtown employers and retailers STO needs to be there for the benefit of Ottawa as well.

Gatineau, Ottawa and the feds need to sit down and figure out how to bring STO LRT into Ottawa for the greatest benefit, the least cost, and the least negative outcomes. This cannot be a STO/Gatineau decision on its own.

I frankly don't know how we get 6,000 riders per hour for Aylmer alone which will be mostly unidirectional when Ottawa's combined traffic east and west on the C-Line will be around 21,000 riders per hour at peak hours. 21,000 for 1,000,000 people in Ottawa versus 6,000 for say 100,000 in Aylmer?? However, even if half of that number is pushed onto the C-Line, we are in trouble if the connection is at Lyon despite some Ottawa riders disembarking at that station.

And please, no more talk about eliminating free transfers. That does not help getting people out of their cars.

Whaaaaa?

Gatineau wanted LRT. STO didn't because they hadn't the expertise (and it's really a mom and pop transit system). The Charest government refused to pay for LRT because it was too expensive in their eyes.

So now you got buses in a train corridor and you'll have trains in a car corridor. Worst of both worlds.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

Whaaaaa?

Gatineau wanted LRT. STO didn't because they hadn't the expertise (and it's really a mom and pop transit system). The Charest government refused to pay for LRT because it was too expensive in their eyes.

So now you got buses in a train corridor and you'll have trains in a car corridor. Worst of both worlds.

It is too expensive by any normal logic. Basically this covers less than half of Gatineau which is a city of less than 300k and a $2.1 Billion project. It only works with an oversized provincial contribution of 60% which they have on the table.

I hope Gatineau can grab the money and get something done. I am sure a 20% Federal contribution should be forthcoming. Hopefully Ottawa will let them run on surface for at least one stop in CBD.