West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Exactly.

Let's also remember that it's also not in Ottawa's benefit to force all Gatineau passengers to transfer onto the Confederation Line. As I've said before, by time the system opens, the STO expects there to be over 6000 passengers per hour heading downtown from Aylmer/Plateau, 12 000 per peak. Although I haven't seen the numbers for Hull/Gatineau, I'd imagine it would be at least as large and likely more.

Having some 30 000+ extra passengers every peak period squeezing onto already-crowded Ottawa trains inconveniences Ottawa passengers as much as those from Gatineau, and results in a slower system for everyone. Denying the STO a surface route downtown and forcing them to overcrowd OC Transpo's system is the closest thing I can imagine to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Agreed. Wellington seems like a good solution with a terminus at Parliament. Of course simply charging incoming STO passengers to use the LRT eliminates most of that problem. There is no reason they should get free transfers. Even now the flow is very one sided and it will be overwhelming in any scenario where STO feeds into the LRT.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Agreed. Wellington seems like a good solution with a terminus at Parliament. Of course simply charging incoming STO passengers to use the LRT eliminates most of that problem. There is no reason they should get free transfers. Even now the flow is very one sided and it will be overwhelming in any scenario where STO feeds into the LRT.

No it wouldn't be overwhelming, by the time any STO passengers board an OC Transpo bus almost all the Ottawa passengers have gotten off already. I know this since I use both transit systems during peak times.

[Aylmer]

I agree with OTrain. Experience shows that, with good STO service to downtown to absorb the lion's share of transit trips, the remaining portion is distributed rather evenly on counter-peak OC routes. There's no problem if a few low 1000s pphpd are heading against the peak between, say, Lyon and Tunneys. In fact, this can help to justify and improve counter-peak service for Ottawa's too. The problem is trying to fit high 1000s, low 10 000s pphpd in the peak direction.

I am also categorically against any transfer fees in either direction. One of the few things we get really right in this region is seamless transfers. Having had to ride in Montreal and Toronto and requiring 3-4 seperate tickets, I can tell you that going backwards would hurt both sides of the river. It'd likely hurt Gatineau residents more, but again with this "cut off your nose to spite your face" thing.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I agree with OTrain. Experience shows that, with good STO service to downtown to absorb the lion's share of transit trips, the remaining portion is distributed rather evenly on counter-peak OC routes. There's no problem if a few low 1000s pphpd are heading against the peak between, say, Lyon and Tunneys. In fact, this can help to justify and improve counter-peak service for Ottawa's too. The problem is trying to fit high 1000s, low 10 000s pphpd in the peak direction.

I am also categorically against any transfer fees in either direction. One of the few things we get really right in this region is seamless transfers. Having had to ride in Montreal and Toronto and requiring 3-4 seperate tickets, I can tell you that going backwards would hurt both sides of the river. It'd likely hurt Gatineau residents more, but again with this "cut off your nose to spite your face" thing.

I mean overwhelming in that under these scenarios 10+ times as many Gatineau residents will be transferring to OCtranspo from STO compared to the reverse. (Very little Gatineau employment is outside of downtown and the reverse bus service is so bad that very few would start on an OCtranspo bus to get to Asticou for example.

I guess you think the city of Ottawa is running a charity? At a minimum we shouldn't let Gatineau pass holders use OCTranspo when they are paying substantially less for the same pass. I think a $20 a month add on or something would be fair and a 50 cent cash fare with transfer.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And 6000 pphpd is not even close to enough to justify allowing a second subway by another city no less, through Ottawa’s downtown core. Aside from the fact that not one entity has mentioned this idea or showed any willingness to fund something like that.

I don't think anyone is considering a parallel subway. The STO does seem to be talking a surface route with Ottawa, according to what I was told at the consultation.

And keep in mind that 6000 pphpd is from 1/3 of the city. Gatineau is planning on migrating most of its cross-river ridership to whatever new rapid transit link it chooses. That means that we're looking at likely 15 000+ pphpd by 2031. Considering even the DOTT is opening with about 10 000 pphpd, this isn't an insignificant number. Enough for a subway vs surface? That's a debate we can have. But what isn't debatable is that there is a need for a transfer-free rapid transit link between downtown Hull and Ottawa to accommodate passenger flows that large.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Where does three transfers come from?

Bus -> STO LRT -> Ottawa LRT. That looks like two transfers to me.

And 6000 pphpd is not even close to enough to justify allowing a second subway by another city no less, through Ottawa’s downtown core. Aside from the fact that not one entity has mentioned this idea or showed any willingness to fund something like that.

Watch how quickly Gatineau’s LRT plan gets killed if they are moronic enough to suggest putting a parallel subway through Ottawa’s downtown core. I think they are smarter than railfans here though.....

It's not just bus in general. Depending on the exact system we end up with, it's can be local bus> Rapibus > STO LRT> Otrain.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I mean overwhelming in that under these scenarios 10+ times as many Gatineau residents will be transferring to OCtranspo from STO compared to the reverse. (Very little Gatineau employment is outside of downtown and the reverse bus service is so bad that very few would start on an OCtranspo bus to get to Asticou for example.

I guess you think the city of Ottawa is running a charity?

These kinds of Trumpian zero-sum games have a record of hurting everyone in order to satisfy the urge to hurt some more. Trump is willing to start a trade war with Canada despite the fact that it hurts the US because he knows it would hurt us more. Starting a 'transfer war' with Gatineau would make trips more difficult for Ottawa commuters, but appears to be justified in the basis that it would make more Gatineau trips worse. Meanwhile, transit has become a less attractive option on both sides of the river, meaning more cars clogging the roads.

I don't expect to convince you on this point, but I feel it's important to point out that zero-sum thinking makes losers of us all.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

These kinds of Trumpian zero-sum games have a record of hurting everyone in order to satisfy the urge to hurt some more. Trump is willing to start a trade war with Canada despite the fact that it hurts the US because he knows it would hurt us more. Starting a 'transfer war' with Gatineau would make trips more difficult for Ottawa commuters, but appears to be justified in the basis that it would make more Gatineau trips worse. Meanwhile, transit has become a less attractive option on both sides of the river, meaning more cars clogging the roads.

I don't expect to convince you on this point, but I feel it's important to point out that zero-sum thinking makes losers of us all.

You are forgetting that there is actually revenue that Ottawa is forgoing. At one point this was a rounding error but if Gatineau is dumping everyone at Bayview at some point Ottawa needs to capture this revenue.

[Aylmer]

All the more reason not to deny Gatineau a rapid transit link to downtown Ottawa.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

All the more reason not to deny Gatineau a rapid transit link to downtown Ottawa.

Yes this I agree with this. I don't see why the city will let Gatineau busses and trucks go wherever they want when the city but somehow a tram line is unacceptable. Maybe Ottawa could extend the line to Vanier along Rideau which would give it some value to Ottawa residents as a connection and would add some employment hubs such as the RCMP which must be a common destination.

[Acajack]

All of the discussions about whether the City of Ottawa would allow or prefer a surface or underground, bus or LRT, infrastructure for STO in its CBD is basically moot, as the key question is who and how anything of the nature will get paid for.

Obviously it's extremely unlikely Ottawa/Ontario will pay, and getting Gatineau/Quebec to pay hundreds of millions for extra-territorial infrastructure seems like a huge longshot too - even if it will benefit tends of thousands of Gatineau/Quebec residents.

[lrt's friend]

This discussion is what happens when there is a lack of cooperation in building a rapid transit network.

In a way it was Gatineau's fault because they expressed no interest in LRT when Ottawa was making its move.

That was a missed opportunity to make more rationale decisions on how everything would interconnect and serve everybody the best. Ottawa went ahead without any consideration of Gatineau demand. It was right in the early C-Line planning reports that STO was excluded even in capacity decisions. I shook my head on that decision.

Now that Gatineau wants to be on board, we all better start looking at integration for the future.

It cannot have zero impact on Ottawa. Downtown Ottawa is still the main destination and for the sake of downtown employers and retailers STO needs to be there for the benefit of Ottawa as well.

Gatineau, Ottawa and the feds need to sit down and figure out how to bring STO LRT into Ottawa for the greatest benefit, the least cost, and the least negative outcomes. This cannot be a STO/Gatineau decision on its own.

I frankly don't know how we get 6,000 riders per hour for Aylmer alone which will be mostly unidirectional when Ottawa's combined traffic east and west on the C-Line will be around 21,000 riders per hour at peak hours. 21,000 for 1,000,000 people in Ottawa versus 6,000 for say 100,000 in Aylmer?? However, even if half of that number is pushed onto the C-Line, we are in trouble if the connection is at Lyon despite some Ottawa riders disembarking at that station.

And please, no more talk about eliminating free transfers. That does not help getting people out of their cars.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

And please, no more talk about eliminating free transfers. That does not help getting people out of their cars.

Hey, we're even evoking banning STO buses from Ottawa streets on here. Which is probably a violation of a whole bunch of laws and regulations anyways, in addition to being politically impossible.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I frankly don't know how we get 6,000 riders per hour for Aylmer alone which will be mostly unidirectional when Ottawa's combined traffic east and west on the C-Line will be around 21,000 riders per hour at peak hours. 21,000 for 1,000,000 people in Ottawa versus 6,000 for say 100,000 in Aylmer?? .

Thanks for doing some much-needed math.

All of Aylmer plus all of Hull is just a shade over 100,000 at the moment. So there's no way the LRT's catchment area (mostly Aylmer-Plateau) is 100,000 people. It may grow to that in the future, but when it will reach that population I don't know.

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I guess you think the city of Ottawa is running a charity? At a minimum we shouldn't let Gatineau pass holders use OCTranspo when they are paying substantially less for the same pass. I think a $20 a month add on or something would be fair and a 50 cent cash fare with transfer.

Transit is a public service. Fares only account for half of OC Transpo's operating expenses.

And please, no more talk about eliminating free transfers. That does not help getting people out of their cars.

Big agree. We don't charge motorists extra fees to drive across the provincial border, now do we?

Obviously it's extremely unlikely Ottawa/Ontario will pay, and getting Gatineau/Quebec to pay hundreds of millions for extra-territorial infrastructure seems like a huge longshot too - even if it will benefit tends of thousands of Gatineau/Quebec residents.

The feds should pony up the money. Libs talk a big game about wanting to reduce carbon emissions, but are they willing to pony up big money for transit infrastructure? We shall see if they can put their money where their mouths are.

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Where does three transfers come from?

Bus -> STO LRT -> Ottawa LRT. That looks like two transfers to me.

And 6000 pphpd is not even close to enough to justify allowing a second subway by another city no less, through Ottawa’s downtown core. Aside from the fact that not one entity has mentioned this idea or showed any willingness to fund something like that.

Watch how quickly Gatineau’s LRT plan gets killed if they are moronic enough to suggest putting a parallel subway through Ottawa’s downtown core. I think they are smarter than railfans here though.....

The Canada Line in Vancouver has a PPHPD of 5500 and it has a 9km subway tunnel. If Gatineau converted the Rapibus, they could get a far higher PPHPD. By 2031, the Rapibus is forecasted to have a PPHPD comparable to the Confederation Line (see the map at the bottom of this document).

However, as you said, this won't happen anytime soon, since Québec has a provincial government that prefers funding highways to nowhere than public transit. Eventually, there will likely be no way around it like for the Confederation Line.

How would surface trams deal with all the events and protests that close Wellington ? How would the trains share the Portage Bridge with the large amount of buses coming from the Rapibus ? How would the trams deal with the drivers that will crash their car in them, closing the whole line every time ?

[lrt's friend]

Three transfers -> local bus - Rapibus - STO LRT - C-Line

This scenario was discussed in the last few days

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

The Canada Line in Vancouver has a PPHPD of 5500 and it has a 9km subway tunnel. If Gatineau converted the Rapibus, they could get a far higher PPHPD. By 2031, the Rapibus is forecasted to have a PPHPD comparable to the Confederation Line (see the map at the bottom of this document).

However, as you said, this won't happen anytime soon, since Québec has a provincial government that prefers funding highways to nowhere than public transit. Eventually, there will likely be no way around it like for the Confederation Line.

How would surface trams deal with all the events and protests that close Wellington ? How would the trains share the Portage Bridge with the large amount of buses coming from the Rapibus ? How would the trams deal with the drivers that will crash their car in them, closing the whole line every time ?

I suggested LRT via Chaudiere and Albert and Slater, already a transit corridor and seldomly affected by marches. This may require a second route into downtown Hull, but would serve all of downtown Ottawa effectively.

[Acajack]

I would think that any future transit solutions that involve something (either more buses or LRT) on the ground passing in front of the Parliament Buildings on Wellington, would be a total non-starter.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I would think that any future transit solutions that involve something (either more buses or LRT) on the ground passing in front of the Parliament Buildings on Wellington, would be a total non-starter.

That and stringing catenary wires along Confederation Boulevard