O-Train Line 2/4 [Stage 2 | Greenboro to Limebank/Airport] | In Service

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by topworker

Thank you for the information loved this post

Welcome to the forum!

[Nowhere]

Anyone else is skeptical that the Trillium line will have enough capacity ? The actual trains can hold up to 260 passengers. The new trains will roughly double the capacity. Using a 12 minutes frequency, the maximum PPHPD (passengers per hour per direction) would be 2600.

The city first forecasted a PPHPD of 4300 for the Trillium line in 2031. This was then revised to 1900 for 2048.

What made the city lower their forecast so much ? If the first one prove to be right, we will have to close the whole thing again very fast for double-tracking. The 12 minute frequency would probably have been good for the first plan that stopped at Bowesville, but I'm skeptical it can meet the demand once extended to Riverside South.

Riverside South and Leitrim together are forecasted to eventually have a population of 72 000. Am I the only one thinking the line will be underbuilt ? I'm afraid it's gonna end like the Canada Line in Vancouver, which started to run at full capacity a few years after opening because of higher than expected ridership. We have to remember that the Trillium Line ridership quickly grew to twice what was forecasted after opening.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

Anyone else is skeptical that the Trillium line will have enough capacity ? The actual trains can hold up to 260 passengers. The new trains will roughly double the capacity. Using a 12 minutes frequency, the maximum PPHPD (passengers per hour per direction) would be 2600.

The city first forecasted a PPHPD of 4300 for the Trillium line in 2031. This was then revised to 1900 for 2048.

What made the city lower their forecast so much ? If the first one prove to be right, we will have to close the whole thing again very fast for double-tracking. The 12 minute frequency would probably have been good for the first plan that stopped at Bowesville, but I'm skeptical it can meet the demand once extended to Riverside South.

Riverside South and Leitrim together are forecasted to eventually have a population of 72 000. Am I the only one thinking the line will be underbuilt ? I'm afraid it's gonna end like the Canada Line in Vancouver, which started to run at full capacity a few years after opening because of higher than expected ridership. We have to remember that the Trillium Line ridership quickly grew to twice what was forecasted after opening.

Not quite the same as the Canada line. It was underbuilt with no possibility of easy expansion. The Trillium line is being designed to be eventually twinned which would add oodles of capacity, we're just being penny wise pound foolish about it by delaying that until not so long in the future

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Not quite the same as the Canada line. It was underbuilt with no possibility of easy expansion. The Trillium line is being designed to be eventually twinned which would add oodles of capacity, we're just being penny wise pound foolish about it by delaying that until not so long in the future

The Trillium Line will not easily be twinned north of Greenboro. It is being closed for 2.5 years just to extend passing tracks (modestly), add two stations, grade separate the VIA crossing and extend station platforms. Fulling twinning is a much more complicated project.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The Trillium Line will not easily be twinned north of Greenboro. It is being closed for 2.5 years just to extend passing tracks (modestly), add two stations, grade separate the VIA crossing and extend station platforms. Fulling twinning is a much more complicated project.

The twinning from Greenboro to Dows Lake north tunnel portal is not a difficult job and the track should only need to be shut down for short periods of time but it will cost substantial amounts of money due to bridge structures and the additional tunnel.

From the tunnel's north portal to Gladstone will require significant work and shutdowns. The most significant problem other than the width of the rock cut is storm water drains entering the cut. If the storm water was diverted, then the width of the cut expansion could probably be reduced.

CN and CP somehow manage to complete many major infrastructure works without complete shut downs of their mainlines. These shutdowns to do the work is the result of the city not demanding the contractor work around rail operations in many cases. I think the extended shutdowns are really only required for the rock cut expansion. The demolition and rebuild of the Decarie and Hwy 20 interchange over the CN 4 track mainline has not required a significant shutdown of rail traffic.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

The twinning from Greenboro to Dows Lake north tunnel portal is not a difficult job and the track should only need to be shut down for short periods of time but it will cost substantial amounts of money due to bridge structures and the additional tunnel.

From the tunnel's north portal to Gladstone will require significant work and shutdowns. The most significant problem other than the width of the rock cut is storm water drains entering the cut. If the storm water was diverted, then the width of the cut expansion could probably be reduced.

CN and CP somehow manage to complete many major infrastructure works without complete shut downs of their mainlines. These shutdowns to do the work is the result of the city not demanding the contractor work around rail operations in many cases. I think the extended shutdowns are really only required for the rock cut expansion. The demolition and rebuild of the Decarie and Hwy 20 interchange over the CN 4 track mainline has not required a significant shutdown of rail traffic.

I have heard this many times before, yet every significant change to the Trillium Line has involved lengthy shutdowns. Considering that the corridor is constricted with many grade separations needing to be replaced, and all the other alternate rail routes have been pulled up, it will be very difficult to do what freight operators routinely do when upgrading track. Also, since freight operations tend to be long distance, some delays resulting from using relocated track or alternate routes are not as critical as with an urban passenger service, where every minute counts.

I believe the MUP trail on the east side of the Trillium Line was the original rail corridor before the Dow's Lake tunnel was built. That allowed freight service to be maintained throughout construction. Not so easy today, unless we are willing to use surface operations as we had before the mid-60s. That will never happen. South of Carleton is only slightly easier. The Rideau River bridge will have to be replaced or twinned, many road overpasses will have to replaced, stations relocated (as proposed), and sidings prepared for mainline service. This means all the signalling will have to be upgraded and the whole new service thoroughly tested. This is not going to happen with brief periodic shutdowns, unless we are prepared to pay more and for the construction period to be considerably longer.

Perhaps, anything is possible if you throw enough money at it, but an already expensive project will be done as cheaply as possible to prevent project costs from getting out of hand.

[J.OT13]

Trillium and Canada have parallels, but Canada is far superior. It was under-built for the long-term, but capacity still has plenty of room to grow, from around 5,000 phpd today (more or less) to 18,000 phpd. They can easily add more trains to increase frequency now and add a slight 10 meter platform extension later on without shutting the line down. Not to mention direct airport to downtown service, not 3 trains.

Trillium will be at max capacity day 1. It will need to be shut down again for upgrades because the work needed is quite extensive.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I have heard this many times before, yet every significant change to the Trillium Line has involved lengthy shutdowns. Considering that the corridor is constricted with many grade separations needing to be replaced, and all the other alternate rail routes have been pulled up, it will be very difficult to do what freight operators routinely do when upgrading track. Also, since freight operations tend to be long distance, some delays resulting from using relocated track or alternate routes are not as critical as with an urban passenger service, where every minute counts.

I believe the MUP trail on the east side of the Trillium Line was the original rail corridor before the Dow's Lake tunnel was built. That allowed freight service to be maintained throughout construction. Not so easy today, unless we are willing to use surface operations as we had before the mid-60s. That will never happen. South of Carleton is only slightly easier. The Rideau River bridge will have to be replaced or twinned, many road overpasses will have to replaced, stations relocated (as proposed), and sidings prepared for mainline service. This means all the signalling will have to be upgraded and the whole new service thoroughly tested. This is not going to happen with brief periodic shutdowns, unless we are prepared to pay more and for the construction period to be considerably longer.

Perhaps, anything is possible if you throw enough money at it, but an already expensive project will be done as cheaply as possible to prevent project costs from getting out of hand.

These projects do not all need to be done at the same time. What is required is a plan and for the city to commit to the plan. Most of the bridges are road overpasses and should not have the same impact on rail operations. What needs to be shut down is the roadway not the railway. This is why the projects need to be staged so that there are alternative road routes. Much of the construction on bridges will be required outside the existing operational rail right of way, hence there is no need for long term shut downs.

The Rideau River bridge can absolutely be constructed without a shut down as it can be built as a parallel independent bridge. The Dows Lake tunnel can also be constructed without a long term shutdown provided the portals are placed far enough apart from the existing portals. The tunnel itself can be built as and independent tunnel.

All individual bridge and tunnel work contracts would be of the size that they are probably of the size that they would attract multiple bidders on each individual job so the city should not have to pay inflated prices for the work. With respect to subgrade, track and signalling work, look at CN, They are double tracking 67 miles of track this year and yet they are not shutting down their mainline between Winnipeg and Vancouver. There is no reason why the same can not be done here. Surely the companies that have done work for CN, CN and ONR have the skills required to build while the track remains in operation. Switch and signal construction can be linked in and tested on weekends or at night to deal with the delay issues you mentioned. The main issue which would probably result in a shut down is the rock cut from the north tunnel portal to Gladstone.

[lrt's friend]

There is a difference between double tracking on rural prairie versus doing the same in a constricted urban environment. The double tracking of the Dow's tunnel is more than just building another tunnel far enough away from the existing tunnel to not cause problems. The north portal in particular will require more blasting as we move the tunnels further apart. Is there land available to do that, especially if the Civic Hospital project goes ahead before double tracking. Do we even have a plan in place to protect the corridor from infringement. I doubt it since it is beyond the planning window.

Are there really enough companies with the expertise to bid on several different contracts that require coordination to get the job done in a reasonable time frame and without major disruption.

I understand what you are saying but the track record with the Trillium Line says that we will see years of shutdown.

[OCCheetos]

North of the tunnel isn't a pinchpoint, and won't be for a long time. Between Carleton and Gladstone is one of the fastest portions of the line (85km/h) which means trains are able to get in and out fast enough to avoid causing backups.

Everything South of Carleton can be double tracked easily without shutting the line down and that's where most of the pinchpoints are. Once South Leitrim to Carleton is fully double tracked, then Carleton to Gladstone becomes a problem, but that won't be for a very long time.

The trench North of the tunnel is actually pretty wide (as I've noted before). It's around 8-9m according to Google maps, and with a realignment of the existing tracks to be closer to the trench walls you wouldn't need to blast a huge amount to get the width required for two tracks.

As for the new Hospital land, according to geoOttawa, the land plot for the rail line extends well beyond the edge of the trench.



Of course that might change when the hospital is actually built, but since a station was considered for that location anyway, I have confidence that the city will protect the land necessary to provide enough space for a second track in the future, after all it's pretty cheap to do that.

On a side note, i guess I never really thought of it like this, but they managed to install new signals without shutting the line down, so that's something. I guess they'll be taking a week to bring them into service next month, but...

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

On a side note, i guess I never really thought of it like this, but they managed to install new signals without shutting the line down, so that's something. I guess they'll be taking a week to bring them into service next month, but...

If I recall correctly, there was a weekend shutdown last fall to do some installation.

[Allandale25]

Any clearing or construction shots available? Haven't seen any lately.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Catenary

If I recall correctly, there was a weekend shutdown last fall to do some installation.

Yes, I have seen those signals in place for some time. There is a set next to Home Depot, still covered with black plastic.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Catenary

If I recall correctly, there was a weekend shutdown last fall to do some installation.

I don't remember a closure specifically for signal work, but at least they kept it to a weekend.

I've seen people working on the signals during regular operating hours as well.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I don't remember a closure specifically for signal work, but at least they kept it to a weekend.

I've seen people working on the signals during regular operating hours as well.

The signals popped up over the Thanksgiving long weekend, after a few closures of the south connecting track for trenching and conduit installation.

[Dengler Avenue]

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=203028&page=552 #11027

I must admit that I don’t follow the Ottawa Subforum that closely, but the extension to airport is for real??

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=203028&page=552 #11027

I must admit that I don’t follow the Ottawa Subforum that closely, but the extension to airport is for real??

Yes, but it will be a three train ride. Airport to South Keys - South Keys to Bayview - Bayview to Downtown.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Yes, but it will be a three train ride. Airport to South Keys - South Keys to Bayview - Bayview to Downtown.

This is because of the airport spur right? Southbound trains not going to the airport don't require a transfer at South Keys, do they? Are Airport-bound trains not possible to be boarded at Bayview?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This is because of the airport spur right? Southbound trains not going to the airport don't require a transfer at South Keys, do they? Are Airport-bound trains not possible to be boarded at Bayview?

Trains will only run in the following ways:
Bayview <—> Limebank
South Keys <—> Airport

There won't be any interlining (except potentially during large events at the EY centre on weekends) due to limited track capacity on the main line.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This is because of the airport spur right? Southbound trains not going to the airport don't require a transfer at South Keys, do they? Are Airport-bound trains not possible to be boarded at Bayview?

You cannot get a train to the airport from Bayview. All Trillium Line trains from Bayview will go to Riverside South and you have to transfer to the Airport spur at South Keys.