Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[JHikka]

If we can keep this thread on topic regarding stadiums and not on, *checks notes*, abortion, that'd be great. We have loads of other threads dying for such fervent discussion.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Fair to say MLB will want a new baseball stadium and a billionaire owner over a corporation. Who is out there to commit to that?

Bell, if they can have a separate entity from Rogers, the Bronfman's and others they can attract.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

If we can keep this thread on topic regarding stadiums and not on, *checks notes*, abortion, that'd be great. We have loads of other threads dying for such fervent discussion.

Feel free to delete (all the posts)

[esquire]

The point here is that Montreal has no need for a stadium capable of hosting baseball. A MLB team will get a new stadium, and there will never be a minor league team playing in there (the absence of any kind of minor league team from Montreal tells you how much that city really loves baseball IMO).

So it really boils down to soccer/football type stadiums. And it just so happens that Montreal has two of them that meet their needs. And if the need arises for something larger, couldn't Saputo be augmented with temporary seats?

It just seems crazy to keep this incredibly expensive, oversized stadium going because someday "we might" need it. It would be like me trading in my car for a Greyhound bus on the assumption that I "might need" to drive around 55 people on a regular basis someday.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I would bet that in the case of more than a few stadiums in the U.S., the football teams that play there without owning the stadium themselves still play games there rent-free, or at least pay peanuts in terms of rent.

(I think WhipperSnapper may have been alluding to that in his post too.)

This may be, but most if not all NFL teams are responsible for the general upkeep and operating costs of the stadiums. I have heard it can typically cost $20 million for operate a domed NFL stadium on an annual basis. Given Olympic Stadium includes an 55,000 seat stadium, a 5000 seat aquatic centre and a sports hall of fame (at least when I was there in 2004), not to mention the tower itself, I suspect it would cost well in excess of that number to operate. Since there is no pro team using the building that cost is subsidized by the public.

Since they will be spending a minimum of $200 million on the roof, they may as well spend another $100 - $200 million or more on the inside - reno concourses, washrooms, replace all the seats which will be 50 years old when the World Cup comes to town, improve the club level/suite level.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know. I remember. I was there. In the stadium.

A hardcore Expos fan in the Gary Carter/Andre Dawson era. At my peak I went to a dozen games a year at the Big O and I wasn't even living in Greater Montreal.

I cried like a baby (OK I wasn't that old back then, but wasn't a baby anymore) when Rick Monday hit his home run off Steve Rogers.

But I just don't think it adds up right now - especially not the new stadium idea.

I feel your pain, I was a huge fan too, I used to score the games, remember those scoring books. I remember the big trade: Tim Foli, Mike Jorgensen and Ken Singleton for legend Rusty Staub that heralded the end of the beginning. The attitude turnaround that began with Charlie Fox and was accelerated by Dick Williams. And then Blue Monday, the home run that essentially killed the Expos and was the beginning of the end.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

The point here is that Montreal has no need for a stadium capable of hosting baseball. A MLB team will get a new stadium, and there will never be a minor league team playing in there (the absence of any kind of minor league team from Montreal tells you how much that city really loves baseball IMO).

So it really boils down to soccer/football type stadiums. And it just so happens that Montreal has two of them that meet their needs. And if the need arises for something larger, couldn't Saputo be augmented with temporary seats?

It just seems crazy to keep this incredibly expensive, oversized stadium going because someday "we might" need it. It would be like me trading in my car for a Greyhound bus on the assumption that I "might need" to drive around 55 people on a regular basis someday.

But that's precisely what humans (and their societies) often do. Not saying it's good BTW.

I am reminded of a scene in the movie Over the Hedge where wild animals end up in a suburban neighbourhood and they stumble upon a humongous SUV.

One of the animals say: "Wow! You can transport so many humans in that thing!"

And another says: "Naaaaaah. Generally just one."

[elly63]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Since they will be spending a minimum of $200 million on the roof, they may as well spend another $100 - $200 million or more on the inside - reno concourses, washrooms, replace all the seats which will be 50 years old when the World Cup comes to town, improve the club level/suite level.

The time to have done that was before the Women's World Cup of Soccer and they did nothing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by elly63

The time to have done that was before the Women's World Cup of Soccer and they did nothing.

Good point but they won't be able to get away with it for the Men's World Cup.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Good point but they won't be able to get away with it for the Men's World Cup.

I don't recall hearing of any major renovations yet, not even blue skies talk. Aside from some of the positive goodwill from the government, I haven't seen any talk about a BC Place type reno, not even the seats for which it is high time they were replaced.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by elly63

I feel your pain, I was a huge fan too, I used to score the games, remember those scoring books. I remember the big trade: Tim Foli, Mike Jorgensen and Ken Singleton for legend Rusty Staub that heralded the end of the beginning. The attitude turnaround that began with Charlie Fox and was accelerated by Dick Williams. And then Blue Monday, the home run that essentially killed the Expos and was the beginning of the end.

I am too young to remember the Singleton/Staub era.

I began paying attention around 1979 when they started to come close to making the playoffs fairly consistently.

After the early 80s team peaked (with no cigar) I remained fairly interested through the latter part of the 80s, but not so obsessively. I did generally go to a few games a year when I was in the country.

I got really interested in them again in the first half of the 90s (DeShields/Grissom/Alou/Martinez/Guerrero) but I was out of the country for some of it. When I was here I'd make some trips to the Big O though.

When they cancelled the 1994 season though I completely tuned out the Expos and MLB as well.

I am always shocked when I am reminded that the Expos actually played in Montreal for 10 years after the cancelled season. For me they were basically gone around 1994-95.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But that's precisely what humans (and their societies) often do. Not saying it's good BTW.

I am reminded of a scene in the movie Over the Hedge where wild animals end up in a suburban neighbourhood and they stumble upon a humongous SUV.

One of the animals say: "Wow! You can transport so many humans in that thing!"

And another says: "Naaaaaah. Generally just one."

I guess if they keep the Big O around it will eventually serve the purpose of being an Economics 100 textbook example of the sunk cost fallacy in action...

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Since they will be spending a minimum of $200 million on the roof, they may as well spend another $100 - $200 million or more on the inside - reno concourses, washrooms, replace all the seats which will be 50 years old when the World Cup comes to town, improve the club level/suite level.

It's in the plans, the replacement cost for the seating and washrooms improvements is supposed to be budgeted by next year.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I guess if they keep the Big O around it will eventually serve the purpose of being an Economics 100 textbook example of the sunk cost fallacy in action...

When I was a kid the Big O was in the Guinness Book of World Records I had, in the "Disasters" section alongside the Hindenburg and other such tragedies.

It was listed as a "financial disaster".

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

I guess if they keep the Big O around it will eventually serve the purpose of being an Economics 100 textbook example of the sunk cost fallacy in action...

Too late, already been done
1976 Montreal Olympics: Case Study of Project Management Failure

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by elly63

The time to have done that was before the Women's World Cup of Soccer and they did nothing.

As Acajack said they will not be able to get away with that for the World Cup. Even though there is no official plans, you can bet they will replace those seats which are close to 50 years old. I think Commonwealth put in 56,000 seats 8 or 9 years ago for 5 - 10 million. Small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. FIFA will also demand some minor upgrades to the interior at the very least ie. media upgrades, lighting, locker rooms, real grass...and it will happen.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

As Acajack said they will not be able to get away with that for the World Cup. Even though there is no official plans, you can bet they will replace those seats which are close to 50 years old. I think Commonwealth put in 56,000 seats 8 or 9 years ago for 5 - 10 million. Small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. FIFA will also demand some minor upgrades to the interior at the very least ie. media upgrades, lighting, locker rooms, real grass...and it will happen.

Either that or Montreal simply won't get the WC games.

Though obviously it won't happen. Montreal will come through.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

As Acajack said they will not be able to get away with that for the World Cup. Even though there is no official plans, you can bet they will replace those seats which are close to 50 years old. I think Commonwealth put in 56,000 seats 8 or 9 years ago for 5 - 10 million. Small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. FIFA will also demand some minor upgrades to the interior at the very least ie. media upgrades, lighting, locker rooms, real grass...and it will happen.

There is already a plan for almost everything you mentioned, save the grass and I am not sure about the lockers. Estimated cost is 150 millions.

La Presse

[esquire]

The seats are probably not as big a deal at the Big O given that they weren't exposed to harsh Prairie winters for over 30 years as the ones at Commonwealth were.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by le calmar

It's in the plans, the replacement cost for the seating and washrooms improvements is supposed to be budgeted by next year.

Ah there we go. Thanks for that. I'm sure the other upgrades I suggested will happen as well.

As for the Expos, I disagree they will not receive public subsidies. I could actually see a minimum of $50 million each from the province and city and possibly closer to the $100 million each. We continue to see public subsidies invested in sports facilities today - Stade Saputo, expansion to Percival-Molson Stadium, Videotron Centre, Place Bell. A new baseball stadium will be no different. Further, I could also see a low or no-interest loan of another $100 - $200 million from the public to be reimbursed over 25 years with a ticket tax.

Example: 25 years * 25,000 persons per game * 81 home games a year *$2.50 ticket tax = $126 million

The owners could front $150 - $200 million of their own money while stadium naming rights could easily account for the rest.

Offhand, I think a new 35 - 37,000 baseball stadium will cost around 600 million.