Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by elly63

I really don't have a dog in this fight, it's like abortion, there's no good answer, but I'm not buyin' your argument either.

What don't you buy? That post tension structures are dangerous to demo conventionally because the cables can snap back injuring operators. Post tension structures keeps the implosion industry afloat

That towers haven't been imploded right beside major rail lines or in the middle of a downtown core?

Joe louis arena is being demo'd for $15 million. Yankees stadium was demo'd for $25 million. There were many questions over the $60 million price tag for the demolition of the Astrodome which, because of it, is now being repurposed.

$700 million is just ridiculous. Demolition is a fraction of the cost of construction. The materials aren't purchased. They get sold.

Abortion is actually not complicated once you take religion fundamentalism out of the equation. Same with genetic screening. Life is being destroyed at alarming levels and, yet our focus is on the life of the fetus over the life of the mother which provides it life. There's also the pragmatic side in that does the world really need another unwanted child that may or may not have a debilitating genetic disorder that could have been screen out?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I would bet that in the case of more than a few stadiums in the U.S., the football teams that play there without owning the stadium themselves still play games there rent-free, or at least pay peanuts in terms of rent.

(I think WhipperSnapper may have been alluding to that in his post too.)

A couple million/year looks like the running average.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports...-32-nfl-teams/

Some pay none, some pay $2M-$4M, and some pay things like stadium wages and such ($10M).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

A couple million/year looks like the running average.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports...-32-nfl-teams/

Some pay none, some pay $2M-$4M, and some pay things like stadium wages and such ($10M).

Lots of pretty sweet deals in there!

[elly63]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Abortion is actually not complicated once you take religion fundamentalism out of the equation. Same with genetic screening.

Believe it or not, there are people who are against abortion who aren't religious fundamentalists. Third wave feminazis don't like having average housewives at their parades, the exploited housewives are just naive and don't have the innate mental capacity to reason out such a simple issue.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

If I lived in Montreal I would probably be wondering what else the hundreds of millions of dollars in stadium renovations could have bought, along with all the money spent on the place this century since it became clear that the Big O was basically a white elephant that no other teams would be using.
.

As a Quebec taxpayer (the province owns the stadium, not the city), I'd be leery of demolishing the stadium given that 5-10 years later someone would likely start thinking that a city of Montreal's stature/a province of Quebec's stature needs a proper stadium, and then we'd set about building another one. At what cost? Not sure. But we'd probably end up paying twice - once for the demolition of the Big O and once for the new stadium.

At that rate I'd rather hold my nose and support the renovation project.

[WhipperSnapper]

The fees are going down while the subsidies are going up. Even so, none of the fees are going to cover maintenance costs or build a reserve for future capital expenditures (like a new $200 million roof)

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As a Quebec taxpayer (the province owns the stadium, not the city), I'd be leery of demolishing the stadium given that 5-10 years later someone would likely start thinking that a city of Montreal's stature/a province of Quebec's stature needs a proper stadium, and then we'd set about building another one. At what cost? Not sure. But we'd probably end up paying twice - once for the demolition of the Big O and once for the new stadium.

At that rate I'd rather hold my nose and support the renovation project.

At least a new stadium would be suited to whatever purpose it is intended for... right now, Olympic Stadium is useless for baseball -- I can't imagine a baseball team calling the Big O home again, at any level, except on an interim basis while a new facility is built -- and ill-suited to football and soccer, at least in terms of the needs of the teams that are currently playing in Montreal.

[elly63]

Let's pretend and say the Big O is gone, what happens then? Forget baseball, there won't be another baseball/rectilinear stadium built ever again (I hope), will Montreal build a new stadium? Why and for whom? Als and Impact to share? Not likely. More likely each would just stay where they are?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

At least a new stadium would be suited to whatever purpose it is intended for... right now, Olympic Stadium is useless for baseball -- I can't imagine a baseball team calling the Big O home again, at any level, except on an interim basis while a new facility is built -- and ill-suited to football and soccer, at least in terms of the needs of the teams that are currently playing in Montreal.

This is pretty much the crux of the issue in Montreal. Any team entering or currently in the market would prefer not to play at Olympic, and their new stadium build potential is the following:

MLB: Potential for a new stadium but not a home run ( )
NBA: Can play at Centre Bell
NFL: Nope
MLS: Already have a right-sized stadium
CFL: Already have a stadium/lack funds for new build
etc. etc.

So as it stands the Big O sits empty waiting for a big event once every 20 years which requires $250M+ to bring it up to spec to make it profitable.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

At that rate I'd rather hold my nose and support the renovation project.

And that seems to be where things are going.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by elly63

Believe it or not, there are people who are against abortion who aren't religious fundamentalists. Third wave feminazis don't like having average housewives at their parades, the exploited housewives are just naive and don't have the innate mental capacity to reason out such a simple issue.

Of course. There's always a middle ground. We're intelligent, complex beings. Like I said, the pragmatic point of view is most likely to agree abortion isn't murder. It is the fundamentalists that are the driving force in overturning the conclusions made so long ago.

P.S. It's obvious what your position is by highlighting an extreme group as a way of projecting irrationality on a side over something that has been already debated and resolved.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Of course. There's always a middle ground. We're intelligent, complex beings. Like I said, the pragmatic point of view is most likely to agree abortion isn't murder. It is the fundamentalists that are the driving force in overturning the conclusions made so long ago. P.S. It's obvious what your position is by highlighting an extreme group as a way of projecting irrationality on something that has been already debated and resolved.

Totally disagree, but as I said earlier this is one of those questions that just isn't going to be answered. And no my position isn't obvious because you want to pre judge and there is also a thing called a Devil's Advocate. This isn't the time or place but if you wanna take the gloves off, I'll go, no problem, but it will just go in circles and I'm pretty sure nobody here wants to see that. Your call.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

At least a new stadium would be suited to whatever purpose it is intended for... right now, Olympic Stadium is useless for baseball -- I can't imagine a baseball team calling the Big O home again, at any level, except on an interim basis while a new facility is built -- and ill-suited to football and soccer, at least in terms of the needs of the teams that are currently playing in Montreal.

But that would mean that we'd need multiple stadiums. Or at least two: one for baseball and one for football/soccer.

I don't think any of that is going to happen (in terms of new builds) with public money in Montreal.

The biggest need (if you can call it that) would be for a new baseball stadium but again unless it's private money it's not going to happen. A baseball stadium will be open-air I assume, which precludes use for events much of the year. Plus baseball stadiums tend to be more single-use than football/soccer stadiums. They're rarely used for concerts and such.

I know that single-use for specific sports is the "in" thing, but for Montreal both the needs and necessity point to a multi-use stadium there.

And they've already got one. Just needs a bit of work.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And they've already got one. Just needs a bit of work.

People are pretty adamant there won't be any baseball at the Big O (unless on a temp basis) while a park is built.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by elly63

People are pretty adamant there won't be any baseball at the Big O (unless on a temp basis) while a park is built.

Well, I am one of those people who thinks the Expos probably won't be coming back, so...

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, I am one of those people who thinks the Expos probably won't be coming back, so...

I tend to think they will and think people underestimate how popular they were (at least until the Jays came) and in the early days of the Jays they were seen as the sad sacks not Nos Amours. Most people here weren't even born then to know (present company excluded)

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by elly63

Totally disagree, but as I said earlier this is one of those questions that just isn't going to be answered. And no my position isn't obvious because you want to pre judge and there is also a thing called a Devil's Advocate. This isn't the time or place but if you wanna take the gloves off, I'll go, no problem, but it will just go in circles and I'm pretty sure nobody here wants to see that. Your call.

Playing Devil's Advocate is just being cheap and untruthful on an online forum.

We are at polar ends. This has been answered and just because someone doesn't like the conclusions doesn't mean it should be reopened to debate.. That time awas decades ago. We have more pressing, current issues that should be occupying our time than this.

[WhipperSnapper]

Fair to say MLB will want a new baseball stadium and a billionaire owner over a corporation. Who is out there to commit to that?

[elly63]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

We are at polar ends. This has been answered and just because someone doesn't like the conclusions doesn't mean it should be reopened to debate.. That time awas decades ago. We have more pressing, current issues that should be occupying our time than this.

The question has never been answered, just because a US court says it was ok, slavery was legal but that didn't make it right, but I agree that we have other issues that should be occupying our time and space at this moment.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by elly63

I tend to think they will and think people underestimate how popular they were (at least until the Jays came) and in the early days of the Jays they were seen as the sad sacks not Nos Amours. Most people here weren't even born then to know (present company excluded)

I know. I remember. I was there. In the stadium.

A hardcore Expos fan in the Gary Carter/Andre Dawson era. At my peak I went to a dozen games a year at the Big O and I wasn't even living in Greater Montreal.

I cried like a baby (OK I wasn't that old back then, but wasn't a baby anymore) when Rick Monday hit his home run off Steve Rogers.

But I just don't think it adds up right now - especially not the new stadium idea.

That's the big stick in the mud that threatens to derail the whole thing. (I think they can probably pull most everything else off.)

My hunch is that if they ever do come back it's because the team they've bought (Rays?) is in such dire straits that even playing in the Big O for a while, while waiting to see if a pie-in-the-sky new stadium plan materializes, might become surprisingly palatable.