[Moncton] Downtown Developments

[tmacdougall]

Let's do some quick math. I've been told it costs between $12,000 to $17,500 per parking spot to build a parking garage. If someone chose to build the same as Alma St. (225 spots) will would cost $2,700,000 on the low end, $3,937,500 on the high end.

If you charge $160 per spot per month, it would take the owner 75 months (6.25 years) to 110 month (9.15 years) to recover the cost.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

That seems costly.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by OliverD

Weren't you the one most adamant that there would be parking problems?

I will personally offer you my mea culpa.

I remain surprised at how well things have gone, but it would be interesting to see how well things would go in the future if the Wildcats were to sustain 8,800 seat sellouts every night rather than their current average of about 5,000.

Parking isn't an issue for me because I have availed myself of a season's parking pass ($200). There were not enough of these for all season's ticket holders, but they were available on the basis of seniority, and I have been a season's ticket holder for 15 years..........

[BlackYear]

Originally Posted by tmacdougall

Let's do some quick math. I've been told it costs between $12,000 to $17,500 per parking spot to build a parking garage. If someone chose to build the same as Alma St. (225 spots) will would cost $2,700,000 on the low end, $3,937,500 on the high end.

If you charge $160 per spot per month, it would take the owner 75 months (6.25 years) to 110 month (9.15 years) to recover the cost.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

That seems costly.

I seem to remember that I too did the math a long time ago, your figures seems about right. However, you need to add annual maintenance upkeeps, gate commissioner annual salary, electrical cost, snow removal, property taxes, etc.

[BlackYear]

And I posted this last Sept or Oct in the Avenir Centre thread. My own testing results is, the green perimeter is a 5 minute walk, the red is 12 minute walk.

You can apply the same if the central point of destination is the Blue Cross building or any other venue/location you want to walk to.

[BlackYear]

IMO, the city should look at the cost of a parking garage the same as Codiac Transit. It's not there to make money, it's there to keep the city moving.

If the city can partner with a developer to build a parking garage, then it's win win for everyone. City maintains a vibrant core, employees/public have secure parking facilities, third party developer is making some returns.

[mylesmalley]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

The Alma Street garage has 225 spaces. Fully rented would bring $36,000 monthly. It seems to me that a large parking garage could be a very profitable business. Especially since the overhead is minimal compared to other types of businesses. The question is, why hasn't anybody done it?

When I googled "parking garage construction cost per space" the first hit I got said US $19,700 per space. Being generous and saying that the land cost is part of that, as well as site prep, remediation etc if necessary depending on location and using a figure of CAD $20,000...

A 225 stall garage would set you back $4.5 million. $36,000 a month would probably barely cover your costs.

• The current garage on Alma is assessed at a little over $2.5 million and pays a little over $60k per year (or 5k per month) just in property tax.
  
• $4.5 million commercial loan, amortized over 30 years at 5% interest is a little over $24k per month.
  
• If you have a manned booth, you could be looking at another $10k per month (wages, health etc, then x3 for full coverage with 8 hour shifts)
• Add in maintenance costs, electricity for lighting, snow clearing etc...

It's basically an entirely fixed cost business. Long story short, unless you can afford to build at a scale where the staffing and maintenance costs are efficient, and can guarantee both steady monthly rental income as well as temporary 'evening' type business, I don't see it being nearly as profitable as you think.

[jonny golden]

Originally Posted by Budyser

IMO, the city should look at the cost of a parking garage the same as Codiac Transit. It's not there to make money, it's there to keep the city moving.

If the city can partner with a developer to build a parking garage, then it's win win for everyone. City maintains a vibrant core, employees/public have secure parking facilities, third party developer is making some returns.

Looking at the other posts it does seem that the costs associated with a building and running a parking structure are too high. Could a joint venture between the city and a developer be a win-win?

[lirette]

Ideal situation with a garage is that its rented fully Mon-Fri between 9-5 and you are also making money on it in the evenings so there's some added profit that's being missed on in this scenario.

Obviously though a garage located by Blue Cross likely doesn't get much usage for events at Avenir but would still be used by people going to dinner downtown, wanting to walk the riverfront park, parking at a newly relocated farmers market etc.

If you could get even 50 cars in there on a nightly average X $10 you could get another $180,000 per year. I think this math is where the biggest risk is though, right now as someone who is downtown Moncton using Avenir, going to dinner etc. I am fine to park on the side streets for free after 6.

[Feneant]

Driving by there last night I was telling myself that the city should purchase the land of empty promises next to Staples on Main St. and build a large multi level parking garage there. They could rent it out to main street tenants during the day and then on evenings and weekends have it opened to visitors for a couple bucks an hour. of course that said most people would consider it a bit far to walk to the Avenir Center from there but it would avoid the use of downtown land for more parking- and it's not like we'll ever see anything being built there otherwise.

[jonny golden]

Originally Posted by Feneant

Driving by there last night I was telling myself that the city should purchase the land of empty promises next to Staples on Main St. and build a large multi level parking garage there. They could rent it out to main street tenants during the day and then on evenings and weekends have it opened to visitors for a couple bucks an hour. of course that said most people would consider it a bit far to walk to the Avenir Center from there but it would avoid the use of downtown land for more parking- and it's not like we'll ever see anything being built there otherwise.

In December Moncton expanded the boundaries for the tax incentive program for developments over $10 million. This property is now included in the incentive zone. Will we finally see a development on this site? It's a prime location between Champlain place and Main Street. A mixed development similar to FiveFive queen would be a tremendous enhancement to the area.

[Photo1]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

When I googled "parking garage construction cost per space" the first hit I got said US $19,700 per space. Being generous and saying that the land cost is part of that, as well as site prep, remediation etc if necessary depending on location and using a figure of CAD $20,000...

A 225 stall garage would set you back $4.5 million. $36,000 a month would probably barely cover your costs.

• The current garage on Alma is assessed at a little over $2.5 million and pays a little over $60k per year (or 5k per month) just in property tax.
  
• $4.5 million commercial loan, amortized over 30 years at 5% interest is a little over $24k per month.
  
• If you have a manned booth, you could be looking at another $10k per month (wages, health etc, then x3 for full coverage with 8 hour shifts)
• Add in maintenance costs, electricity for lighting, snow clearing etc...

It's basically an entirely fixed cost business. Long story short, unless you can afford to build at a scale where the staffing and maintenance costs are efficient, and can guarantee both steady monthly rental income as well as temporary 'evening' type business, I don't see it being nearly as profitable as you think.

I could be wrong, but if we are using said 'new parking garage' to replace an equally spaced 'surface lot' and that surface lot then becomes a residential/commercial structure (perhaps with its own internal parking) contributing to the city's coffers via property tax, would that not also be factored into the equation?

[benvui]

Originally Posted by Photo1

I could be wrong, but if we are using said 'new parking garage' to replace an equally spaced 'surface lot' and that surface lot then becomes a residential/commercial structure (perhaps with its own internal parking) contributing to the city's coffers via property tax, would that not also be factored into the equation?

Yes the equation for ROI if the city were to build a parking garage is different than if a private company were to build it. The city would have to account for all the spin off benefits, similar to the calculation for the ROI of the Avenir center. The profit might not come from the building itself but all the new development that is happening around the center.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

In December Moncton expanded the boundaries for the tax incentive program for developments over $10 million. This property is now included in the incentive zone. Will we finally see a development on this site? It's a prime location between Champlain place and Main Street. A mixed development similar to FiveFive queen would be a tremendous enhancement to the area.

Absolutely, but the current owner of this land has presented several grandiose projects for consideration by city hall over the last 5-7 years, none of which have come to fruition, and as such, long time members of this forum have become somewhat jaded and cynical regarding the prospect of anything substantive ever actually happening here.

[jonny golden]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Absolutely, but the current owner of this land has presented several grandiose projects for consideration by city hall over the last 5-7 years, none of which have come to fruition, and as such, long time members of this forum have become somewhat jaded and cynical regarding the prospect of anything substantive ever actually happening here.

Yes I remember seeing several proposals in the past. Residential, and then a hotel. I don't know if the property being included in the incentive zone will make any difference or not. It's such a great location; it would be great to see it developed. And if and when it ever happens, it should be something sizable.

[pierremoncton]

Originally Posted by Feneant

Driving by there last night I was telling myself that the city should purchase the land of empty promises next to Staples on Main St. and build a large multi level parking garage there. They could rent it out to main street tenants during the day and then on evenings and weekends have it opened to visitors for a couple bucks an hour. of course that said most people would consider it a bit far to walk to the Avenir Center from there but it would avoid the use of downtown land for more parking- and it's not like we'll ever see anything being built there otherwise.

This was actually public land, which the city sold to the "developer" on the condition that development started within two years. That was then extended another year. IIRC, the purchase price was $200k, and the city has the option to take it back due to the owner not following through.

[jonny golden]

Originally Posted by pierremoncton

This was actually public land, which the city sold to the "developer" on the condition that development started within two years. That was then extended another year. IIRC, the purchase price was $200k, and the city has the option to take it back due to the owner not following through.

Any idea what the deadline is now?

[Photo1]

Originally Posted by benvui

Yes the equation for ROI if the city were to build a parking garage is different than if a private company were to build it. The city would have to account for all the spin off benefits, similar to the calculation for the ROI of the Avenir center. The profit might not come from the building itself but all the new development that is happening around the center.

Ok cool, I thought so. Hard to say if we would get a Private developer willing to take that on, perhaps a Private/Municipal partnership, hard to say.

That said a new, modern, multi-level structure that is well placed downtown could be quite beneficial.

[BlackYear]

Just a few photos from today.

[Monctoncore]

I really like the first and the last photos. In the first one I really like how compact the city looks thanks to the use of zoom. As for the last photo, I have a similar feeling, it’s makes the building on St. George and the residence at UDEM feel more like they are right downtown. I’d love to see a photo from a similar angle, but with more of the city skyline in it.

I also noticed you can see Euston Park bar in the last photo.

[BlackYear]

Originally Posted by Monctoncore

I really like the first and the last photos. In the first one I really like how compact the city looks thanks to the use of zoom.

Yes, I know what you are saying. I've been wanting to do this for a while. Can't find the time. Coming soon.

Originally Posted by Monctoncore

As for the last photo, I have a similar feeling, it’s makes the building on St. George and the residence at UDEM feel more like they are right downtown. I’d love to see a photo from a similar angle, but with more of the city skyline in it.

I already have some of these photos in the mess of albums that I have which I can't find, but need to go back and redo when the lighting is just right. I pulled this off my Instagram from several years ago. Another redo I want to do with my Nikon in better quality. Also coming soon.