Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Vancouver already declared a climate emergency.

But TransLink isn't controlled by Vancouver alone. And I completely agree that going slow is not the way, and that they need to electrify their entire fleet as quickly as possible. But if this trial goes through fine then there's a much stronger position for that happening rapidly in three years' time. Politically they want to stop the Jordan Batemans of the world from flipping out over "wasting money on unproven technology" nonsense.

I don't think too many people are in that camp, they just want the buses to run on time and reliably. And who doesn't hate the cloud of diesel when an older bus takes off?

I guess the best question would be: How many diesel buses are being bought in the meantime? If they are holding off purchases while this trial happens, or only buying CNG and trolley buses, that might be more tolerable.

[Mac Write]

Vancouver should put up more trolly wires for all routes and use Trollys with batteries for longer off wire re-routes.

[red-paladin]

I think Trolleys are being planned to be phased out.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I think Trolleys are being planned to be phased out.

Replaced by hybrid?

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I think Trolleys are being planned to be phased out.

i heard that, though it probably wont be for awhile. there is a lot of liability with trolley wires surprisingly.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Replaced by hybrid?

by batteries is the plan i have heard.


personally i am pro-trolley. but if battery technology can catch up i could see the benefit of not having the wires overhead; they can get messy.

[Mac Write]

I really enjoy trolly buses their a piece of our history and I hope they stay around for far beyond your grand kids being grand parents.

[djh]

Can trolley buses be retrofitted with electric battery packs on the roof? This could keep the buses from being retired and help transition the fleet to battery power without the high purchase cost of a whole new battery-piwered bus.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by djh

Can trolley buses be retrofitted with electric battery packs on the roof? This could keep the buses from being retired and help transition the fleet to battery power without the high purchase cost of a whole new battery-piwered bus.

that'd become a very top heavy bus i would imagine. also, i doubt the roof could support the weight.

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

that'd become a very top heavy bus i would imagine. also, i doubt the roof could support the weight.

For current trolleybuses, it probably does not make economic sense to retrofit them as battery-electric buses. But within the next 5 to 10 years, the entire fleet are due for a replacement.

Personally, I would like to retain the trolleybuses despite their current rough looks. I find it quite unfortunate actually that our current fleet were built just before vehicle battery innovation really took off and that they run through the grittiest parts of town. While the wired infrastructure costs a little more to maintain, it is already built and in place, and I think Vancouver has benefited a lot from the lack of emissions and how they run off of our cheap hydroelectricity.

In addition, the trolleybus network is very much part of our unique history:

• The historical "rails-to-rubber" conversion, in which electric trams were phased out in favour of trolleybuses
• The many arguments over the years about whether to retain our network in the face of other North American cities closing them down
• How oil crisis after oil crisis - and the fuel price jumps that followed - demonstrates the need for alternatives to fossil fuels

Also, it is worth mentioning that many low-floor buses with alternate propulsion technologies (CNG, diesel-electric, hydrogen, battery-electric, etc) already have a variety of ancillary equipment on their roofs. So it's not a huge stretch to do something similar on any new trolleybuses that we order...

In fact, there were some possibly unsubstantiated rumors that our most recent batch of buses equipped with the currently diesel-powered BAE series-hybrid system could be converted to electric-only buses at a later date... although it was not clear whether they would end up being battery-electric buses or trolleybuses...

[Migrant_Coconut]

The trolleys should go the same way as VHS tapes. I appreciate their service, but given the choice between buses that need a tenuous, finicky connection to a maze of overhead wires or ones that need neither, the choice seems obvious.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The trolleys should go the same way as VHS tapes. I appreciate their service, but given the choice between buses that need a tenuous, finicky connection to a maze of overhead wires or ones that need neither, the choice seems obvious.

I agree. In terms of nostalgia it's tough, but if batteries are easier to maintain/cheaper/not an eye sore, etc. there isn't really a debate.

[WarrenC12]

I like trolleys, 2nd only to full Battery-electric, which we don't even have yet. They should be the last thing to go.

They are nice and quiet, no air pollution. Yes they have a few issues, but they are extremely reliable on some very busy routes.

[Sheba]

According to a Daily Hive article from Sept

Metro Vancouver’s public transit authority is planning ahead for an even greener future, and it plans to accomplish this by switching its fuel sources for its bus fleets.

TransLink’s Mayors’ Council is expected to approve a plan in a meeting today that reduces its GHG emissions by 2050 and completely switches its operational fuels to renewable energy sources by 2050, with interim targets set for 2030 and 2040.

..

Community shuttle buses have a lifespan of about five years or a mileage of 250,000 km, conventional 40-ft and 60-ft buses have a lifespan of 17 years or a mileage of 1 million km, and trolley buses have a lifespan of over 20 years or a mileage of 1 million km.

The report also poses the question of whether the trolley buses, which mainly run within the city of Vancouver, should be replaced with battery-electric buses. Vancouver’s current trolley fleet went into service between 2005 and 2007, and they will need to be replaced by around 2028.

...

So it's not something that people need to be freaking out over

[Migrant_Coconut]

So I guess the question is whether or not those extra 3+ years justify the reliability issues?

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I don't think too many people are in that camp, they just want the buses to run on time and reliably. And who doesn't hate the cloud of diesel when an older bus takes off?

I guess the best question would be: How many diesel buses are being bought in the meantime? If they are holding off purchases while this trial happens, or only buying CNG and trolley buses, that might be more tolerable.

Per what I've read on other forums that have summarized and referenced Translink documents on bus purchase decisions, the buses Translink are buying are primarily hybrids, mostly equipped with the BAE Hybridrive system. Translink is also buying large numbers of CNG buses as well, but they are also still buying regular diesel powered buses for special applications where other technologies don't perform as well, such as long distance, suburban buses, or where raw power is prioritized due to how hilly the route is.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

So I guess the question is whether or not those extra 3+ years justify the reliability issues?

I think the issue is that Translink might want a better idea of how a battery bus can be scheduled on a route. For example, if a bus takes 10 minutes to charge at each end of the route, do you budget the layover time for just 10 minutes, or something longer? If the bus arrives late due to traffic, do you need to delay the bus departure to ensure a full charge, or is maintaining the schedule a higher priority? If maintaining the schedule is a priority, do you need more buses and bus drivers to ensure that there's sufficient buses on a route to take up any slack in the schedule as a result of enroute delays and the need to charge the batteries? That sort of thing.

[twoNeurons]

It seems like someone needs to invent a battery quick-swap system. The charging infrastructure for that many buses is mind-boggling.

I think any bus that can't go a full day on a full charge is a non-starter to be honest. And given that we JUST refreshed our fleet, I think it's prudent that we wait on new technology to solve some of the problems facing BEVs right now. The technology is getting there quickly, but it's not what I'd call mature.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

It seems like someone needs to invent a battery quick-swap system. The charging infrastructure for that many buses is mind-boggling.

I think any bus that can't go a full day on a full charge is a non-starter to be honest. And given that we JUST refreshed our fleet, I think it's prudent that we wait on new technology to solve some of the problems facing BEVs right now. The technology is getting there quickly, but it's not what I'd call mature.

Considering the route the EV buses will run on is about 15km each way, taking about 45 minutes in good traffic each way, for roughly 1 hour each way, including layover. On a 8 hour shift, looking at 120km travel distance, and that can be longer if the bus stays out longer with the driver switching.

You are looking at one hell of a big battery pack to support all day operation, which would add weight and take up volume on the bus.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

Considering the route the EV buses will run on is about 15km each way, taking about 45 minutes in good traffic each way, for roughly 1 hour each way, including layover. On a 8 hour shift, looking at 120km travel distance, and that can be longer if the bus stays out longer with the driver switching.

You are looking at one hell of a big battery pack to support all day operation, which would add weight and take up volume on the bus.

I'm sure smart people have figured out that the current setup is the most optimal. I wonder if BYD does the same thing in China. The amount of battery charge cycling would be the biggest issue IMO.

120km wouldn't actually be too bad though, on the surface of things. EVs do well in stop and go traffic, and brake regen systems are quite efficient.

[L00per]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

It seems like someone needs to invent a battery quick-swap system. The charging infrastructure for that many buses is mind-boggling.

The technology to delivery a charged battery to the bus, swap it, then return the spent battery to a depot is more mind-boggling, and still requires charge infrastructure.

A bus, fully charged overnight in depot, can do quite well in an urban environment with top-ups that it can get periodically at stations and stops along the way. It doesn't need to be fully charged at the stations/stops, it just needs to get enough such that the initial charge, plus whatever it receives throughout the day, can get it through the day.

New Flyer has a ton of great information on their site. They talk about shorter range batteries that can be charged more quickly, versus longer range batteries that can't be. It seems that there are a lot of options to optimize the battery configuration for the route.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I think any bus that can't go a full day on a full charge is a non-starter to be honest.

Given the current cost of battery packs, charging infrastructure at turnaround points may very well be the cheaper option. Remember, for a given route you only need to install one or two charging points, but you need to buy batteries for every bus on the route.