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  #1381  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 11:31 PM
CityTech CityTech is offline
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I have never bought the rail over bus bias. It is about service quality. For travelers with luggage, why would transfers be more appealing?
It is definitely a thing, especially for Americans.
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  #1382  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Man, the Bayview transfer is awful. Went downtown yesterday. The walk was so long and awkward, and far worse than former Transitway transfer that already was pretty long. Right now, you have to walk almost in a circle before making a long walk next to an overpass embankment, with the choice of a longer walk to the end of the embankment and then double back or walk up a steep slope.
Yeah, I've done it in a few times in the Transitway closure era, it's pretty awful, especially to the eastbound bus stops. Thankfully that's very temporary and it gets much better (than both the present day and pre-2015 layouts) once the LRT opens. It's actually tantalizing because you can see the future Trillium Line platform at Bayview quite clearly from the other side of the fence when making the transfer today. A quick, weather sheltered jaunt upstairs.
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  #1383  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 2:03 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I have never bought the rail over bus bias. It is about service quality. For travelers with luggage, why would transfers be more appealing?
Hauling luggage onto a bus (even if the bus is low floor) isn't as great as level platform boarding onto a train.

Our buses are also terrible for transporting luggage since there's basically no place to put it. The trains on the Trillium Line have wide open areas near the doors at least. The trains also don't need to deal with traffic and the trains are also tend to be cleaner and smoother of a ride. Overall, the ride quality is infinitely better than a bus (for a traveler).
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  #1384  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 3:06 AM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
Hauling luggage onto a bus (even if the bus is low floor) isn't as great as level platform boarding onto a train.

Our buses are also terrible for transporting luggage since there's basically no place to put it. The trains on the Trillium Line have wide open areas near the doors at least. The trains also don't need to deal with traffic and the trains are also tend to be cleaner and smoother of a ride. Overall, the ride quality is infinitely better than a bus (for a traveler).
In many cities, the airport bus routes have specialized luggage racks.
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  #1385  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 1:08 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I have never bought the rail over bus bias. It is about service quality. For travelers with luggage, why would transfers be more appealing?
All things being equal, rail does have a bias over buses. So in that sense it exists. But, as you said, the mode of transport isn't the only factor, even though some planners seem to think otherwise. The 97 wasn't flashy, but it was effective. The current T-Line airport spur plan might be a necessary evil as the city gradually develops it LRT network (especially in the slapdash approach that they are taking with the T-Line), but there is no way anyone can argue that it is an improvement to getting to the airport by transit, because it definitely isn't.
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  #1386  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 2:04 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton View Post
All things being equal, rail does have a bias over buses. So in that sense it exists. But, as you said, the mode of transport isn't the only factor, even though some planners seem to think otherwise. The 97 wasn't flashy, but it was effective. The current T-Line airport spur plan might be a necessary evil as the city gradually develops it LRT network (especially in the slapdash approach that they are taking with the T-Line), but there is no way anyone can argue that it is an improvement to getting to the airport by transit, because it definitely isn't.
I can understand some of benefits that have been presented about rail, however, transfers while carrying a pile of stuff is an absolute pain.

On my return home from downtown on Saturday, I was carrying a computer, projector and an over the shoulder bag containing my presentation, almost like carrying luggage. Having to get on and off vehicles, and changing levels multiple times is far from comfortable.
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  #1387  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 2:20 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I can understand some of benefits that have been presented about rail, however, transfers while carrying a pile of stuff is an absolute pain.

On my return home from downtown on Saturday, I was carrying a computer, projector and an over the shoulder bag containing my presentation, almost like carrying luggage. Having to get on and off vehicles, and changing levels multiple times is far from comfortable.
Add to that the uncertainty in total travel time that results from multiple transfers. If the T-Line was being built to the same standards as the C-Line then there would be a much higher probability of schedules being met. But the single line nature of the T-Line is going to result in delays, which, when you are trying to get to an airport, is super stressful. Most people aren't going to think about that aspect, but if/when delays result from multiple transfers and service issues on the T-Line, word will spread fast that it is not a great service.
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  #1388  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 2:32 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Add to that the uncertainty in total travel time that results from multiple transfers. If the T-Line was being built to the same standards as the C-Line then there would be a much higher probability of schedules being met. But the single line nature of the T-Line is going to result in delays, which, when you are trying to get to an airport, is super stressful. Most people aren't going to think about that aspect, but if/when delays result from multiple transfers and service issues on the T-Line, word will spread fast that it is not a great service.
12 minute frequency is not good service for a supposed trunk line and then there is a further 2 year shutdown starting in 2020. How many more extended shutdowns will there be in the future? For example, a shutdown is likely just to upgrade the Walkley overpass and station at some unknown date.

The current configuration at Bayview is horrible and further discourages downtown access from the T-Line. It is like they don't want people making that transfer. We improve this later this year, and then within months, we shut it down and replace it with an unreliable and slow bus route, just to discourage people from using the T-Line to go downtown yet again.

It is no wonder why people don't use the T-Line for downtown access. There is longstanding record of bad service, bad connections and frequent shutdowns since 2001.
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  #1389  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 4:34 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
12 minute frequency is not good service for a supposed trunk line and then there is a further 2 year shutdown starting in 2020. How many more extended shutdowns will there be in the future? For example, a shutdown is likely just to upgrade the Walkley overpass and station at some unknown date.

The current configuration at Bayview is horrible and further discourages downtown access from the T-Line. It is like they don't want people making that transfer. We improve this later this year, and then within months, we shut it down and replace it with an unreliable and slow bus route, just to discourage people from using the T-Line to go downtown yet again.

It is no wonder why people don't use the T-Line for downtown access. There is longstanding record of bad service, bad connections and frequent shutdowns since 2001.
More and more whenever I write T-Line I feel like it should be short for Tragic Line.

On a somewhat related note, I have been putting together a map that shows all the redevelopment/intensification that has taken place in Ottawa, inside the Greenbelt, from 2004 - 2018. It has been a huge eye opener for me as it shows some pretty interesting development patterns, and a lot of missing pieces for developing Ottawa into a more urban landscape. The amount of development that has actually taken place along the existing T-Line is marginal, at best, and based on the patterns I have seen, I don't think the upgraded T-Line is going to change that. The only part of the line that will see any large scale growth are the suburban sections. For what they are spending on Phase 2 of the T-Line, they are getting shockingly little.
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  #1390  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 5:14 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton View Post
More and more whenever I write T-Line I feel like it should be short for Tragic Line.

On a somewhat related note, I have been putting together a map that shows all the redevelopment/intensification that has taken place in Ottawa, inside the Greenbelt, from 2004 - 2018. It has been a huge eye opener for me as it shows some pretty interesting development patterns, and a lot of missing pieces for developing Ottawa into a more urban landscape. The amount of development that has actually taken place along the existing T-Line is marginal, at best, and based on the patterns I have seen, I don't think the upgraded T-Line is going to change that. The only part of the line that will see any large scale growth are the suburban sections. For what they are spending on Phase 2 of the T-Line, they are getting shockingly little.
You are so right. The T-Line terminus will barely reach the edge of development in Riverside South. The original N-S route would have reached deeply into Barrhaven where development is much more advanced. Findlay Creek now has accelerating growth but is awkwardly connected to the T-Line. All the suburbs inside the Greenbelt, which have traditionallyl higher transit usage are discouraged from using the T-Line for obvious reasons.

So basically, we have the T-Line terminus being a possible growth point for the future, and nothing else but what is happening north of Dow's Lake, which due to proximity, should have direct service to downtown during all service hours. This area would be better off with frequent bus service directly into downtown.

Pretty pathetic all things considered on how badly the T-Line serves the area through which it runs.
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  #1391  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 7:31 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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You are so right. The T-Line terminus will barely reach the edge of development in Riverside South. The original N-S route would have reached deeply into Barrhaven where development is much more advanced. Findlay Creek now has accelerating growth but is awkwardly connected to the T-Line. All the suburbs inside the Greenbelt, which have traditionallyl higher transit usage are discouraged from using the T-Line for obvious reasons.

So basically, we have the T-Line terminus being a possible growth point for the future, and nothing else but what is happening north of Dow's Lake, which due to proximity, should have direct service to downtown during all service hours. This area would be better off with frequent bus service directly into downtown.

Pretty pathetic all things considered on how badly the T-Line serves the area through which it runs.
Its funny. I have long been a defender of the T-Line (I even skipped class to take a trip on the inaugural run from Bayview to Greenboro). And I have said that its greatest potential is to help fuel development along the line.

And while I still believe it has some degree of value, I have basically done a 180 on what I think about it, in the past few months. To me, it has become a perfect example on how to waste money on a transit line just because the rail line/corridor is "right there". The city has tried to shoe horn it into something that isn't, or should be, and instead of taking a moment to really think about the future of the line, they just double down on bad ideas (with some wanting to double down once more with a line across the POW bridge).

It also ignores the reality of development in Ottawa right now (something which I admittingly didn't have a full grasp on until recently). The city should absolutely be looking at ways at accommodating more people within the greenbelt. But the kind of urban development it has been trying to encourage (sort of) with the approval of taller buildings at Dow's Lake and Bayview, and the less than perfect twaddle on Rideau Street, isn't happening at a fast rate. At least with the C-Line it should trigger some intensification around 4 or 5 stations, where as this isn't likely to happen at any of the T-Line stations (this is in part due to frozen Federal lands, which is a whole other subject). As much as I would love for the T-Line to continue downtown, I am not sure if that would be enough to kickstart serious urban development along the line. It either needs to be an organic growth, or something the city aggressively pushes, and both of those events are probably several decades out.

I get that Ottawa is trying to reform itself from the auto-oriented mess it became. And its heart was in the right place when it came to the T-Line. And they have to deal with the federal government controlling a lot of land, and affecting how the city can grow, which has got to be a nightmare at times. And since cancelling the T-Line portion of phase 2 is out of the question, it should start thinking about how they can fix it after the fact to actually make it useful.
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  #1392  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 7:44 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Some answers I got to miscellaneous questions I asked a few weeks ago:

Is the livery featured on the Stadler FLIRTs (red with a maple leaf at the front) in the Stage 2 South renders the livery that will be used on the final trains?
The livery used in the renderings of the Stadler FLIRT was developed by Stadler for promotional purposes. Staff are considering it as we work on the appearance of the new trains.
There are no other drawings available at this time. Once a decision is made on the livery of the new trains, drawings will be published on octranspo.com.


Will the Alstom LINTs also receive a new livery as part of their overhaul?
Not at present time. Thank you for the suggestion.

Will the LINTs be receiving any changes to their interior layouts to feature more grip bars during their overhaul?
In regards to the LINTs, there is no contractual requirement to change the interior layouts. The existing stanchions and hand holds will be colored yellow, for visibility and consistency with the Confederation Line and the FLIRTs.

Are there any concerns with using a coupled pair of LINTs in regular service because of potentially longer than planned dwell time at stations due to the limited number of doors on each train compared to the FLIRTs?
No. Operational Performance requirements will be met for both Stadler FLIRT vehicles and coupled Alstom LINTs.

Will the LINTs receive driver-operated doors as part of their overhaul?
Driver-operated doors will not be provided on the LINTs. The use of passenger buttons for door operation significantly reduce the heat loss during stop in winters, particularly outside peak periods and at lightly trafficked stations.

(This was before the Riverside South plans were released) Did the southern extension portion of the line take into account the possibility of infill stations in Riverside South or a potential future extension of the line past Limebank station? (In the renders it shows the entrance of the station being located at the end of the tracks).
Yes, the alignment protects for future stations between Limebank Station and Bowesville Station, as warranted by future development. There are no current plans to extend rail beyond Limebank Station.

On geoOttawa it shows a pocket track just east of Limebank station. What is this for?
There will be no pocket track east of Limebank Station. The Rail Implementation Office Layer on GeoOttawa will be updated to reflect this.

As I understand it, the City is required to ensure that freight operations can be conducted on the length of the Trillium Line in the event that this is ever required, hence the addition of freight-only bypass track in the grade separation plan at the Ellwood diamond. An issue was raised about the vertical clearance of the track under the Albert Street overpass at Bayview station which could inhibit potential freight operations in the future. Is there any plan to address this issue during the changes to Bayview station as part of Stage 2, or is the plan to build another bypass around the station in the future (if the need ever arises, just as with the Ellwood diamond situation)?
The City of Ottawa has made provisions to accommodate freight in the vicinity of Bayview Station, including the Albert Street overpass, however, the final freight solution will be assessed against the specific freight operator needs at the time of the request.

Will any work be done on the trench between Gladstone and the Dow's Lake tunnel involving widening the trench slightly to prevent this work needing to be done in the future (at the cost of a shutdown of the line)? It was mentioned that future double tracking and a new/realigned station at the proposed new hospital campus were taken into consideration in the design plans, is any work going to be done as part of Stage 2 to make allowances for either double tracking, or for the possible new station?
The rehabilitation of Dow’s Lake tunnel has been bundled with the Trillium Line project. Widening the tunnel is not in scope.


As stated in the station description appendix of the contract award report, design and construction of Carling station will not preclude a future double tracking, as well as a potential connection to the future hospital site, south of Carling Avenue.


Will the new Walkley yard begin construction before or after the closure of the Trillium Line next spring?
The New Walkley Yard will see construction begin in 2019.
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  #1393  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 9:02 PM
zzptichka zzptichka is online now
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
Some answers I got to miscellaneous questions I asked a few weeks ago:
Good stuff.
Did you ask if they are still sticking to their promise of easy cross-platform transfer to the airport shuttle?
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  #1394  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 9:09 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Good stuff.
Did you ask if they are still sticking to their promise of easy cross-platform transfer to the airport shuttle?
I didn't, but since they made the point about designing Lincoln Fields to allow for easy transfers I would expect South Keys to be the same...

I'll be sure to ask when I send in more questions at some point.

Edit: The point about Lincoln Fields was in the answers about the Confederation Line extension.

Last edited by OCCheetos; Apr 15, 2019 at 11:26 PM.
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  #1395  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 6:25 PM
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I didn't, but since they made the point about designing Lincoln Fields to allow for easy transfers I would expect South Keys to be the same...

I'll be sure to ask when I send in more questions at some point.

Edit: The point about Lincoln Fields was in the answers about the Confederation Line extension.
Good Day.

As far as the similarity of LincolnFields to SouthKeys...... they are not similar.

LincolnFields is supposed to be a three track - two platform station, with the shuttle sitting in the center track between the two platforms, with both outside tracks occupied by the mainline trains, one in each direction. Passengers stroll from one train directly to the other, in either direction and on either side, as necessary. Maximum convienience possible given the necessity of a transfer.

SouthKeys is supposed to be a one center platform with two outside tracks, and a pocket track just north. The Airport shuttle arrives on the northbound track from the airport, unloads, parks in the pocket, the north and south trains meet on either side of the platform, unload, load, and depart, and the Airport shuttle pulls up on the southbound track, loads, and departs for the airport.
To institute a three track two platform system as per LincolnFields is much too much cost and physical space, and a passenger load factors overkill.
The most convenience available is thus a two minute wait on the transfer (or, of course, interlining).

'tis what 'tis.
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  #1396  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 8:20 PM
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Good Day.

As far as the similarity of LincolnFields to SouthKeys...... they are not similar.

LincolnFields is supposed to be a three track - two platform station, with the shuttle sitting in the center track between the two platforms, with both outside tracks occupied by the mainline trains, one in each direction. Passengers stroll from one train directly to the other, in either direction and on either side, as necessary. Maximum convienience possible given the necessity of a transfer.

SouthKeys is supposed to be a one center platform with two outside tracks, and a pocket track just north. The Airport shuttle arrives on the northbound track from the airport, unloads, parks in the pocket, the north and south trains meet on either side of the platform, unload, load, and depart, and the Airport shuttle pulls up on the southbound track, loads, and departs for the airport.
To institute a three track two platform system as per LincolnFields is much too much cost and physical space, and a passenger load factors overkill.
The most convenience available is thus a two minute wait on the transfer (or, of course, interlining).

'tis what 'tis.
The last I heard was that the airport shuttle will reach South Keys at the mid point between successive mainline trains, giving enough time to arrive, unload passengers and move into the pocket track. This will minimize possible conflicts between the main line and the shuttle

For example: arrival of shuttle at South Keys 0:00, arrival of both mainline trains at 0:06, departure of airport shuttle at 0:12

They may be able to optimize this a little more but unless the track layout is changed, this is more or less how it will work.
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  #1397  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
The last I heard was that the airport shuttle will reach South Keys at the mid point between successive mainline trains, giving enough time to arrive, unload passengers and move into the pocket track. This will minimize possible conflicts between the main line and the shuttle

For example: arrival of shuttle at South Keys 0:00, arrival of both mainline trains at 0:06, departure of airport shuttle at 0:12

They may be able to optimize this a little more but unless the track layout is changed, this is more or less how it will work.
Good Day.

Yeah, that's more probable, esp. given the vague statement recently about optimizing operations to minimize risk to mainline operations.

But it would be nice......
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  #1398  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2019, 10:59 PM
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Is SNC-Lavalin technically incompetent? Hardly — but here's what the city needs to explain

James Bagnall, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: April 18, 2019


It’s difficult to know which is more bizarre — the idea that SNC-Lavalin isn’t qualified technically to manage a piece of the second stage of the city’s light rail transit project, or that City of Ottawa officials won’t offer a definitive statement that it is.

When the city revealed two months ago that TransitNEXT — a unit of SNC-Lavalin — was its preferred bidder for managing the $1.6-billion extension of the Trillium Line to the airport and beyond, few eyebrows were raised.

After all, SNC-Lavalin has deep experience with mass transit, including recent projects in Kuala Lumpur, Qatar, Washington, D.C. and Vancouver.

More relevant, it also has a 40-per-cent stake in Rideau Transit Group, the entity responsible for the first phase of Ottawa’s LRT project. While the launch of LRT service has been delayed several times, it’s not clear whether the blame lies with SNC-Lavalin, its partners, or both. In any case, SNC-Lavalin has acquired plenty of hands-on experience that will be useful in Stage 2.

Is it up to the job? A report from CBC suggests the Montreal-based engineering giant had failed to meet minimum technical scores in a detailed evaluation by procurement officials, which prompted the city’s auditor general Ken Hughes recently to add the LRT Stage 2 evaluation to his current list of investigations.

What is he likely to find? Most likely, very little of consequence — but there are a couple of twists. On the face of it, it stretches credulity that the city would have awarded such a large contract to a company allegedly incapable of meeting a basic technical standard.

Consider first that the city’s procurement staff launched the Trillium Line extension project by winnowing the field of potential contenders from five to three, based on technical, financial and other qualifications. TransitNEXT made the grade, as did Trillium Link (led by Spanish infrastructure firm Acciona) and Trillium Extension Alliances (fronted by Australian infrastructure specialist Plenary Group).

The finalists were invited mid-July 2017 to submit more detailed bids in response to a formal request for proposals (RFP), a document that in all likelihood covered hundreds of pages.

Over the next 18 months, teams of city evaluators applied several screens. The first involved mandatory requirements such as whether the bidders had previously done projects of similar size, and had the right mix of technical skills available locally. This is standard with government contracts, and all three passed. A failure to meet any of the mandatories, as these are known, would have resulted in being dropped from the competition.

Next, teams of technical experts evaluated how the bidders proposed to tackle dozens of project criteria, ranging from the quality of materials used to the aesthetics of the LRT stations.

The evaluators used a points system spelled out in the request for proposals. According to documents made available by the city, the contenders had to achieve a minimum of 70 per cent in each criterion “to receive a passing score.”

Chris Swail, director of O-Train planning, asserted “All three bids were technically compliant,” in response to queries by the Citizen.

The CBC in a recent report suggested that SNC-Lavalin failed to top the threshold and should not, therefore, have been permitted to move to the third phase of the competition, involving the financial aspects.

Who’s right? Here’s where things get complicated.

In the first place, scoring for many of the criteria is a subjective, rather messy exercise. That’s why the city used teams of independent evaluators to assess bidders’ responses. After completing their examination, members of each team compared scores and reached a consensus — a very common feature of government contracting.

The scores were then totalled up. In the the Trillium Line extension competition, a perfect technical score would have been 500 — a passing grade, 350. This would then be combined with the ranking, also out of 500, of each contender’s financial proposals. The total score determined the overall winner — a conclusion that would later be approved by city council.

The big question is, did SNC-Lavalin initially fail to achieve 70 per cent on the technical side of things, in which case should it have been dumped from the competition before proceeding to the financial bid analysis?

Much depends on the wording of the RFP, which will remain private for another few weeks as officials redact certain sections for reasons of corporate confidentiality. In general, however, it’s not unusual for those running a procurement — the city in this case — to reserve for itself the right to intervene and/or interpret matters according to its perceived interests, even to the extent of waiving the 70 per cent requirement or re-examining how certain criteria were judged.

“The evaluation process in general sets broader internal governance rules to be followed by the City, including discretionary rights that may be exercised.” said Swail.

Assuming the city intervened, and we don’t know that it did, it wouldn’t mean TransitNEXT is technically incompetent. This stage of the contest had more to do with ranking, given that all finalists were judged initially to be qualified to bid and also passed a series of mandatory requirements.

The language spelling out the city’s authority would likely have been in the RFP and understood by all three rivals. Swail added that the governance process set out in the bid documents was to ensure that “discretion is exercised fairly by the appropriate level in the City’s evaluation structure and for the right reasons.”

Certainly the city was keen to keep a close eye on costs, given that the LRT Stage 2 project was increasing in scope. City officials have said SNC-Lavalin was the only bidder to come in under the targeted budget, so the firm appears to have won the financial component of the competition by a significant margin.

So why has the city been so reluctant to publicly address the question of whether SNC-Lavalin topped the 70 per cent threshold in the detailed technical evaluation phase of the procurement?

Perhaps officials are concerned with how to sell taxpayers on any intervention that ultimately favoured SNC-Lavalin — no matter how clear and legal the city’s discretion to do so.

SNC-Lavalin is already in the news for the wrong reasons — a criminal trial relating to the company’s activities in Libya a decade ago is rapidly approaching — and questions about its technical competence would compound things.

City officials have said they stand by the “integrity of the procurement process in no uncertain terms”, but these are just words. If discretion was applied, they need to show how — and why. Otherwise, doubts about the result will persist.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/...but-heres-what-the-city-needs-to-explain
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  #1399  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2019, 3:24 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Stadler has published a press release regarding the FLIRTs being purchased for Stage 2
PDF: https://www.stadlerrail.com/media/pdf/2019_0423_media_release_ottawa_en.pdf
Image: https://www.stadlerrail.com/media/img/flirt_trillium_line.jpg

Looks like they'll be built and assembled in Switzerland and just shipped here in mid-2021.
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  #1400  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2019, 4:01 PM
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