O-Train Line 2/4 [Stage 2 | Greenboro to Limebank/Airport] | In Service - Page 69

lrt's friend · #**1361** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 4:23 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

All that money spent on building a rail link, we could have instead spent on more double-tracking and refurbishing some buses with luggage racks. The 97 could become a shuttle between the airport, South Keys and Hurdman.

The 97 needs to continue to run all the way downtown to service business and tourist travelers. Visitors do not want or need the confusion of transfers regardless of the efficiencies of LRT.

Let's face it, the airport spur is nothing more than a vanity project especially for the airport authority, while the vast majority of the capital and operating costs are being paid by the taxpayer.

capital_urbanite · #**1362** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 12:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by daud

I saw SNC Lavalin trucks and workers today in a field area just south of Earl Armstrong and east of Limebank. They were in the vicinity of mosquito creek and the power lines that run near it. Another group was near Bowesville. Just surveying and soil sampling in the second location I think (but I am no expert)

They have also cleared trees on the East side of South Keys station.

JohnnyRenton · #**1363** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 1:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Let's face it, the airport spur is nothing more than a vanity project especially for the airport authority, while the vast majority of the capital and operating costs are being paid by the taxpayer.

Everything about the current plan for the airport spur is trash. It is useless as an efficient transit link and not worth the money being spent on such a sub-par solution. It will probably take poor ridership numbers when it opens for anyone in the city or the planning department to admit this though. It still baffles me how a city that has done transit so well for so long has managed to make such a mess of the Trillium line. It will be...interesting...to watch this mess of a line take shape.

J.OT13 · #**1364** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 2:05 PM**

The infrastructure for the airport link is not wasted. With the success or failure of the Trillium and Airport lines, the City might be forced to make the needed work at Walkley in order to increase frequency to 8 minutes, thus providing direct airport to Bayview service. Still not direct downtown, which we'll never have thanks to the high floor diesel trains, but that would be a significant improvement nonetheless.

If trains are ever extended to Zibi, that would be a major win.

corynv · #**1365** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 3:09 PM**

Also isn't a good chunk of the money for the airport link coming from the Airport Authority? So most of it can't be redirecting into something like double tracking, or better signaling etc.

TransitZilla · #**1366** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 3:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The 97 needs to continue to run all the way downtown to service business and tourist travelers. Visitors do not want or need the confusion of transfers regardless of the efficiencies of LRT.

Let's face it, the airport spur is nothing more than a vanity project especially for the airport authority, while the vast majority of the capital and operating costs are being paid by the taxpayer.

It would certainly have been my preference to put more money into the mainline Trillium line (and at least achieve 10 minute headways) than to build the Airport link.

But, we've got to remember:
-The city isn't putting any money into building this, the province is funding it.
-The Airport is putting up over $30M for this and strongly support it, so they seem to think it is viable.

J.OT13 · #**1367** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 3:35 PM**

Province AND Feds. They're splitting the cost of the Trim extension and airport spur.

From what I understand, the airport is only paying ($30 million) the terminal extension with the lounge, which is fine. The actual "station" is part of the Prov/Feds funding partly because the City wants to keep full control.

https://www.otrainfans.ca/trillium-stations/airport-link/airport

Richard Eade · #**1368** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 3:41 PM**

Remember, though, that that $30M+ is made up of a lot of things that are not 'cash'. For example, I suspect that all of the land within the Airport Authority's control that will become the rail corridor (and, perhaps the temporary land that will be used during construction) has been costed and is included in that amount. So, it is not a case of the Airport Authority having to come up with $30M+ in cash. As far as I can make out, they will only be responsible for building the actual interface with their terminal building; although they have pretty much dictated the path of the train and where stations and structures must be within their property.

J.OT13 · #**1369** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 3:47 PM**

Good point.

OTSkyline · #**1370** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 5:23 PM**

We will never half direct airport to downtown rail, that's a fact and I'm okay with that. But at minimum we should have direct Airport to Bayview. Which means at most 1 transfer. 2 is the breaking point for me...

Even if they would have use South Keys as the "split" point for the Trillium Line. Maybe instead of 50/50 (one train to airport, one to Riverside South) it could have even be 33/66 (one to airport, next to to Riverside, one to airport) etc... Meaning you could've had 1 train every 20 minutes or so but direct to Bayview.

danishh · #**1371** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 6:19 PM**

will the airport spur vehicle be able to run on the via tracks?

I know one of the bundled projects with the trillium line is redoing the ellwood diamond. There may be utility to sending the airport train that way to tremblay, which would be especially useful if the intercity bus terminal was moved to tremblay.

OCCheetos · #**1372** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 6:24 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by danishh

will the airport spur vehicle be able to run on the via tracks?

Not unless VIA implemented (compatible) PTC on their line/trains, which I don't believe they have any plans to.

Quote:

I know one of the bundled projects with the trillium line is redoing the ellwood diamond. There may be utility to sending the airport train that way to tremblay, which would be especially useful if the intercity bus terminal was moved to tremblay.

If that happened, the airport train would still need to cross through the main bottleneck on the line (South Keys to Brookfield) so that wouldn't be feasible.

Alternatively it could get to Tremblay via Walkley Yard, but that's a long distance to travel (and a lot of track that needs upgrading) for very little benefit. The city itself definitely wouldn't put any money up for that.

lrt's friend · #**1373** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 7:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The infrastructure for the airport link is not wasted. With the success or failure of the Trillium and Airport lines, the City might be forced to make the needed work at Walkley in order to increase frequency to 8 minutes, thus providing direct airport to Bayview service. Still not direct downtown, which we'll never have thanks to the high floor diesel trains, but that would be a significant improvement nonetheless.

If trains are ever extended to Zibi, that would be a major win.

The Walkley double tracking only brings us to 10 minute frequency according to the last meeting that I attended.

Regardless, the airport spur is being designed for 12 minute frequency.

The only way this works for direct service to Bayview is full double tracking.

OCCheetos · #**1374** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 7:39 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The Walkley double tracking only brings us to 10 minute frequency according to the last meeting that I attended.

Regardless, the airport spur is being designed for 12 minute frequency.

The only way this works for direct service to Bayview is full double tracking.

The airport spur can run at much higher frequencies than that. It will only operate at 12 minutes in order to sync up with the main line.

The original design spec mentioned 5-8 minute frequencies and they've since greatly lengthened the passing track on the spur, so if trains were to run without long dwell times at either end you could get fairly frequent service on the spur (useful for events I guess?)

lrt's friend · #**1375** Posted **Apr 12, 2019, 11:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The airport spur can run at much higher frequencies than that. It will only operate at 12 minutes in order to sync up with the main line.

The original design spec mentioned 5-8 minute frequencies and they've since greatly lengthened the passing track on the spur, so if trains were to run without long dwell times at either end you could get fairly frequent service on the spur (useful for events I guess?)

It doesn't really matter. The service is limited by its weakest point, which will be north of South Keys.

J.OT13 · #**1376** Posted **Apr 13, 2019, 3:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The Walkley double tracking only brings us to 10 minute frequency according to the last meeting that I attended.

Regardless, the airport spur is being designed for 12 minute frequency.

The only way this works for direct service to Bayview is full double tracking.

Right, forgot it was 10 and not 8.

8 was was was promised when they "upgraded" the line and failed miserably.

zzptichka · #**1377** Posted **Apr 13, 2019, 4:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The 97 needs to continue to run all the way downtown to service business and tourist travelers. Visitors do not want or need the confusion of transfers regardless of the efficiencies of LRT.

Let's face it, the airport spur is nothing more than a vanity project especially for the airport authority, while the vast majority of the capital and operating costs are being paid by the taxpayer.

You underestimate rail-over-bus bias people tend to have.
With the way YOW is serviced right now (bad signage, bus stop tuck away outside in the corner, no ticket machine) I would say 90% of tourists and business travellers who don't want to pay for a cab will choose rail with 2 transfers over a direct bus.
90% of commuters working at YOW though would choose a direct bus. But then again, most commuters won't have direct bus from their home to YOW, so they'll also choose rail.
97 will only be used by commuters who live along its route, and that's it. I think they should still run it though.

PHrenetic · #**1378** Posted **Apr 13, 2019, 4:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by zzptichka

You underestimate rail-over-bus bias people tend to have.
With the way YOW is serviced right now (bad signage, bus stop tuck away outside in the corner, no ticket machine) I would say 90% of tourists and business travellers who don't want to pay for a cab will choose rail with 2 transfers over a direct bus.
90% of commuters working at YOW though would choose a direct bus. But then again, most commuters won't have direct bus from their home to YOW, so they'll also choose rail.
97 will only be used by commuters who live along its route, and that's it. I think they should still run it though.

Good Day.

The rail bias for travellers is not to be underestimated...... psychologically, it is a guaranteed origin-destination, even with transfers.
Buses do not have this guarantee for travellers - they know not where the heck it goes, nor where the stops are. That's a biggie. Rail does.
As do (unfortunately) taxis and limos - even at the cost differential, they are preferred psychologically and for convenience (door-to-door).

And, I recall somewhere recently in the literature of late that OC-T has guaranteed MCIAA this level of rail service for two years. We have that long to prove the demand.

We Shall See.

lrt's friend · #**1379** Posted **Apr 14, 2019, 10:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by zzptichka

You underestimate rail-over-bus bias people tend to have.
With the way YOW is serviced right now (bad signage, bus stop tuck away outside in the corner, no ticket machine) I would say 90% of tourists and business travellers who don't want to pay for a cab will choose rail with 2 transfers over a direct bus.
90% of commuters working at YOW though would choose a direct bus. But then again, most commuters won't have direct bus from their home to YOW, so they'll also choose rail.
97 will only be used by commuters who live along its route, and that's it. I think they should still run it though.

I have never bought the rail over bus bias. It is about service quality. For travelers with luggage, why would transfers be more appealing?

lrt's friend · #**1380** Posted **Apr 14, 2019, 10:50 PM**

Man, the Bayview transfer is awful. Went downtown yesterday. The walk was so long and awkward, and far worse than former Transitway transfer that already was pretty long. Right now, you have to walk almost in a circle before making a long walk next to an overpass embankment, with the choice of a longer walk to the end of the embankment and then double back or walk up a steep slope.