The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[J.OT13]

Ottawa's growth pattern, both in terms of development and landmass, is very spotty. Factors like the provincial border, the greenbelt and Federal Government's decentralized employment nods in suburban campuses created a very spotty metropolitan area.

Up until the mid-50s, Ottawa annexed smaller municipalities and townships (or parts of) as it grew, similarly to Calgary and Edmonton, yet somehow leaving Vanier and Rockliffe Park independent islands in a sea of Ottawa. Suburban communities such as Orleans and Barrhaven were formed in the 70s beyond the greenbelt as part of existing rural townships (Gloucester/Cumberland and Nepean) and Kanata as its own semi-self-sustained suburban "Cypress Creek" type development.

The 2001 provincially imposed amalgamation created this monster we know today. Gatineau was also created out of multiple municipalities a year earlier.

Ottawa's transit shifted from an urban affair to the more suburban-centric model when the Regional Municipality of Ottawa–Carleton took over public transportation in 1969, 10 years after streetcars were removed. The amalgamated City of Ottawa kept with that tradition in order to gather the most votes.

Though no other city in Canada is as large as Ottawa (other than Halifax), but most cities in eastern Canada have that same spotty development pattern over time.

I am quite impressed with the way Prairie cities were able to grow by nearly the same rate in all directions, amalgamating surrounding areas as needed. This leaves the downtown at the very centre of the city, and not at one edge. Very little is left outside the city limits, securing one large jurisdiction, which I imagine makes it much easier to plan the region's transportation networks.

[CityTech]

In Ottawa's case, the city was a bit of a Frankenstein mess pre-2001 as well. The pre-amalgamation borders were almost comical in a lot of cases.

[Dengler Avenue]

https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn/...3/woodbine-fund-new-go-station-racetrack

From 2 days ago: Woodbine Race Track (Etobicoke, ON) to fund its Go station

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

You think Calgary is big?


https://ottawastart.com/how-big-is-ottawa/

That is such a cute city....

https://sudburymovesca.wordpress.com/2016/03/25/the-self-defeating-lies-youve-been-repeating/

Scroll down a bit and you will see how many municipalities that can fit into the city of Greater Sudbury.

Size is irrelevant.

[Chadillaccc]

And to subdivide that even further, around 200 km2 of Calgary's municipal territory is undeveloped greenfield, basically farmland. I believe it's the only major metro in the country with an urban area entirely within its municipal borders.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

And to subdivide that even further, around 200 km2 of Calgary's municipal territory is undeveloped greenfield, basically farmland. I believe it's the only major metro in the country with an urban area entirely within its municipal borders.

So Cochrane, Airdrie and Okotoks are not part of the urban area?

[J.OT13]

Unless Chad means continuous urban area, no breaks, in which case the farmland between Calgary and those municipalities would eliminate them from that so-called "urban area". Though there does seem to be some spill-over of the urban area beyond the Calgary city borders in the north-west end and a bit in the east end.

Halifax, at a whopping 5,496.31 km2, is its own metropolitan area.

Winnipeg, Regina and Saskatoon seem to have nearly their entire metro populations and urban areas within their borders as well. Of the big prairie cities, only Edmonton has significant population beyond its limits.

Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver have a mind-numbing number of independent suburbs surrounding them. Toronto at least has GO Transit providing regional transportation, though transit integration between municipal transit services seems bad from what I've heard. Same with Montreal. Vancouver's Translink is a good solution to metropolitan transit, though that can sometimes lead to suburban-centric planning. Vancouver seems to have dodged that bullet for the most part.

[Innsertnamehere]

There are 8 transit agencies operating in the GTA. Generally it’s not too much of an issue since fares are generally integrated with the regional service (GO), and they run into each other’s “territory” when it makes sense to get to a major destination.

most of York Regions north south routes were operated by the TTC, for example, so that people wouldn’t have to transfer as they entered Toronto, only pay an extra fare. They switched about half of them back to YRT recently though once the subway extension to Vaughan opened as they just directly feed the subway now.

With a regional review underway now, I wouldn’t be surprised if the amount of municipalities.. drops soon. I could see things like Pickering and Ajax merging, or Newmarket and aurora.

[Chadillaccc]

I mean the way StatCan defines urban area. Airdrie, Cochrane, Chestermere, etc never have been included in our urban area, and won't be for a long time. Over 25% of our municipal landmass isn't included in our urban area even.

Edit: and to correct the numbers on the map up there, the City of Calgary is 826 km2. To correct my numbers, our urban area is 586 km2, for a greenfield/farmland total of 240 km2 (about 30%), which is nearly identical in size to the Halifax and London (ON) urban areas or the City of Saskatoon. Also, sorry for hijacking this conversation, I just thought it was an interesting tidbit to share that most people seem to not know.

[ssiguy]

That Woodbine station is a neccessity and should have been on the top of the list for stations for GO from the very beginning. Hopefully they will also make it a new stop for UPX as it would serve as a crutial transfer point to Peasron from GO & VIA trains and avoid having to build a people mover to connect to Peasron from the rail corridor.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Halifax, at a whopping 5,496.31 km2, is its own metropolitan area.

There is a lot of confusion about this.

Statistics Canada uses census divisions to build up census metropolitan areas. The Halifax CMA roughly matches the municipality because it is based on the borders of the municipality.

The eastern 2/3 of the municipality only has 20,000 people or so, and the eastern half would probably not be included in the CMA if it were its own census division. Then at other boundaries, there are suburbs of Halifax that are not in the CMA because they are in larger census divisions. You could tweak the census division boundary a bit and end up with 1/2 the land area, probably 30,000 or so more people, and a similar or higher proportion of commuters. But this is not done because the census divisions are what they are for historical reasons; the province decided that the Eastern Shore would be included as part of Halifax (probably because they could not manage services on their own), and Hants and Lunenburg are their own counties.

Unfortunately like with that Sudbury example above it's very common for people to think that the "city" is spread out over 5,500 square kilometers which incorrect.

[J.OT13]

Train testing around uOttawa and Lees.

• Video Link


Blair Station (east terminus until 2024).



https://twitter.com/_stevenli/status/1106361573147201538

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by osmo

Are you able to provide a source or data for this ?

I ask because this just does not seem accurate. Calgary is well known for be disproportionately large in land area elective for its population. Calgary is larger the New York City, Toronto, Chicago. China uses non-conventional ways to calculate it's land area for cities, growing them to cover tracts of forests and such to artificially grow land area. Central Shanghai is roughly 300 Sq.km. which is much smaller than the city of Calgary.

It's pretty easy, actually. As I mentioned, central Shanghai is generally defined as the area inside the OUTER Ring Road, not the Inner Elevated Ring Road (which is where I suspect that 300 square kilometre number comes from). The Outer Ring Road in Shanghai has a length of 99km, which quite coincidentally is the exact same length as Stoney Trail in Calgary will be when it is completed in 2023. Shapes with the same perimeter will have similar enclosed areas, ergo Shanghai's central urban area and Calgary (the vast majority of which is enclosed by Stoney Trail) have similar areas.

[Reecemartin]

Redid our future of Edmonton LRT video in waaay better video and audio quality! We also added a ton of new info, should be a great way to get up to speed with the current system and expansion plans!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2YsxGC7Kcc

[Wpg_Guy]

Overhead Shots of the 2018 Southwest BRT Transitway Construction Activities in Winnipeg

















Bohemier Trail into Stadium Station

Stadium Station (photo taken looking west)
https://winnipegtransit.com/en/major-projects/rapid-transit/southwest-transitway#tab-photos

[swimmer_spe]

It is awesome to see the work being done.

That really leaves Quebec and Hamilton in the top 10 cities by population without rapid transit. However, Hamilton will be starting construction of theirs this year. Anyone know if QC will too?

[Chadillaccc]

Wow I had no idea Winnipeg had started on Phase 2 of the SW Transitway! That is awesome. My one concern is that most of the route seems to be very sparsely populated. However, it will be great to have the University of Manitoba and Investors Group Field connected to downtown with a rapid transit link. Very cool to see how far along they are.

[Reecemartin]

This is definitely cool, though end of the day I'd really like to see this converted to rail (similar to Ottawa) down the line. Busways are a good starting point and are definitely a significant move however, I'd just love to see more of our cities with rails in the ground. Especially then because it adds another province to the list of provinces with rail transit.

[BIMBAM]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It is awesome to see the work being done.

That really leaves Quebec and Hamilton in the top 10 cities by population without rapid transit. However, Hamilton will be starting construction of theirs this year. Anyone know if QC will too?

Yup! Quebec City was talking about bus rapid transit, but it fell apart in 2017, which is probably for the best. In March 2018 the mayor and the province announced they were going with a 23km tramway system at a cost of 3 billion dollars from Charlesbourg to Cap-Rouge, with a 3.5km underground portion. 260 passengers per vehicle capacity. 3 to 5 minute frequency at peak times, 10-15 on weekend or nighttime periods, which is fairly similar to the metro in Montreal if a bit less frequent, really not too shabby. Expected completion in 2026.

Of course, that was in March. I don't know if the CAQ will still be willing to fund it, but I wouldn't be too surprised, Quebec City is a major base of support for them, it seems likely they wouldn't back out of an already announced project like this. Any QC forumers know the current status?

[Hybrid247]

I have to admit, I'm pretty disappointed with the alignment of Winnipeg's BRT. Would it have been that much more expensive to relocate the freight rail to the hydro corridor instead and use the existing rail corridor along Pembina for the busway?