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  #9721  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2019, 8:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
I think the trains need more red, and they should have used the bold red circles and dots that are on the stations and stops.

Also if the trains were painted asymmetrically it would make the combinations more interesting like this:


Yes please!

Last edited by J.OT13; Mar 12, 2019 at 8:46 PM.
     
     
  #9722  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2019, 9:28 PM
Admiral Nelson Admiral Nelson is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Yes please!
I agree, all of these are more attractive than what we're getting. That whoosh really does scream 1980s.
     
     
  #9723  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2019, 9:45 PM
Mikeed Mikeed is offline
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I hate the swish.

But I also enjoy the stylized leaf that makes the train look like a dilophosaurus.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/23/64/08/236408c219f949e5ee38154499c2c7e9.gif

I really regret we didn't have an international competition and had a bunch of nearly elderly city councilors design our trains with the intention to make it look the same.

I would have tired to make something like the Avro Arrow or a Coast Guard Ship with the stylized leaf.

Could have based it on the 150 logo- yes we missed 2017 by a mile, but would have been an interesting legacy of this style.



Yes I would have toned down the red, added more white, but I would have said to someone with artistic style- could you make something like this?
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Last edited by Mikeed; Mar 12, 2019 at 9:58 PM.
     
     
  #9724  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2019, 10:05 PM
Allandale25 Allandale25 is offline
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Is there a good document somewhere that shows the length and width (cross section) of the Alstom LRVs?
     
     
  #9725  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2019, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
I wish we would have stuck with the look and livery as proposed in the original Confederation Line renderings, which were similar to East-West Connector's stand-ins.
Where as I like the new design much more than the original. The original design was so monotonous and had no style.
     
     
  #9726  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2019, 10:39 PM
corynv corynv is offline
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I remember seeing a picture of 6 options for the livery of the line, one of which being the current design, I think some of the other ones were pretty good (not sure where i can find that picture though).
     
     
  #9727  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2019, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
That is still a sore point for me: I find that the Line 1 livery looks very boring and outdated. That and the trains' customizable design (inside and out) should have been chosen through public online surveys (say three options each for paint scheme, nose and interior design). It would have been a very simple way to engage the public and build a sense of pride and ownership.
Definitely! Calgary for example did this as an easy way to generate public goodwill and engagement with their system - pretty much at the same time Ottawa was unveiling our design. It’s really odd that OC Transpo missed this easy and obvious opportunity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.calgarytransit.com/news/new-mask-ctrain-car-arrives
Calgarians were asked to help choose the design of the front of Transit’s new CTrain cars by voting on three options: The Bow, inspired by the Bow River; The Buffalo, inspired by the buffalo; and The Mask, inspired by a hockey goalie mask. The winning design of The Mask represents individuality, reliability, style and protection, a fitting design to represent Calgary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Again that "whoosh" does nothing for the design other than make it look outdated. At least on the bus it will be mostly hidden by advertisement.
Outdated is right: the whoosh is actually from the old OC Transpo branding, as on the tops of the old bus stops and signs:


Image: OC Transpo


Image: Screenshot of Google image search results

Quote:
Originally Posted by corynv View Post
I remember seeing a picture of 6 options for the livery of the line, one of which being the current design, I think some of the other ones were pretty good (not sure where i can find that picture though).
The original design options came before the new branding. There was one (middle left) that was pretty much the same as the current bus brand, and would have been just fine.


Image: OC Transpo

I suppose it makes sense that they went with the whoosh when it was the actual brand, but as soon as the red O came out they should have quickly cancelled the old design - it’s just a decal, they could have easily not ordered/installed it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
I think the trains need more red, and they should have used the bold red circles and dots that are on the stations and stops.

Also if the trains were painted asymmetrically it would make the combinations more interesting like this:

These are excellent! You should submit these, tweet them, get them seen! After all the bad news, opening up to a crowd-sourced design would win back some good will on the project.
     
     
  #9728  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2019, 12:36 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by caveat.doctor View Post
Definitely! Calgary for example did this as an easy way to generate public goodwill and engagement with their system - pretty much at the same time Ottawa was unveiling our design. It’s really odd that OC Transpo missed this easy and obvious opportunity.
They did this with the REM too. In both cases, each design also featured a different physical design of the front of the trains.

I asked if there were any plans to do this with the FLIRTs for Stage 2 (I know there are plenty of variations in the physical design of the FLIRT) but the answer was no.

I guess it's generally cheaper to just have a contest to name the trains for the same goodwill/engagement effect.

Speaking of which, when will those decals be applied? I get that RTG has other priorities on the Confederation Line, but it couldn't be that hard to just apply them on the Trillium Line trains, right?
     
     
  #9729  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2019, 12:37 AM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allandale25 View Post
Is there a good document somewhere that shows the length and width (cross section) of the Alstom LRVs?
They used to have one on the Alstom website itself, not sure if they still do.
     
     
  #9730  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2019, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
They did this with the REM too. In both cases, each design also featured a different physical design of the front of the trains.

I asked if there were any plans to do this with the FLIRTs for Stage 2 (I know there are plenty of variations in the physical design of the FLIRT) but the answer was no.

I guess it's generally cheaper to just have a contest to name the trains for the same goodwill/engagement effect.

Speaking of which, when will those decals be applied? I get that RTG has other priorities on the Confederation Line, but it couldn't be that hard to just apply them on the Trillium Line trains, right?
I have a feeling the real FLIRT livery will end up as Line 1 and not as in the renders, which seems very similar to option 6
     
     
  #9731  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2019, 1:15 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by kmcamp View Post
I have a feeling the real FLIRT livery will end up as Line 1 and not as in the renders, which seems very similar to option 6
I'm still hoping otherwise.. I've asked about it along with a bunch of other questions regarding the vehicles and Stage 2 in general. I'll post the answers here when I receive them.
     
     
  #9732  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2019, 2:20 AM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
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I went trainspotting at UOttawa again. I counted 17 (single) trains pass in the span of an hour (roughly). This is good, right?
     
     
  #9733  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2019, 2:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Gat-Train View Post
I went trainspotting at UOttawa again. I counted 17 (single) trains pass in the span of an hour (roughly). This is good, right?
I'd say so. Testing has ramped up over the last few weeks.
     
     
  #9734  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2019, 2:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
They did this with the REM too. In both cases, each design also featured a different physical design of the front of the trains.

...........
Good Day.

The Montreal STM held a design-and-colour competition with three different options for the new Metro Azur trains, open to the public at large - not just kids.
It was by all reports a huge success in buy-in of the Montreal transit public. And the final result was amazing - imho the best choice - the one I voted for.

I did not see the competition for the REM trains. Any reference ? Thx.

EnJoy.
     
     
  #9735  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2019, 3:19 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by PHrenetic View Post
Good Day.

The Montreal STM held a design-and-colour competition with three different options for the new Metro Azur trains, open to the public at large - not just kids.
It was by all reports a huge success in buy-in of the Montreal transit public. And the final result was amazing - imho the best choice - the one I voted for.

I did not see the competition for the REM trains. Any reference ? Thx.

EnJoy.
The voting site is no longer up, but this article has images of all three options.
https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/public-is-asked-to-vote-on-design-of-rem-trains
     
     
  #9736  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2019, 1:40 PM
LeadingEdgeBoomer LeadingEdgeBoomer is online now
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An interesting take on things from uOttawa's student newspaper the Fulcrum.

Public nitpicking of O-Train ignores systemic problems
Eric Davison 2019/03/12, 2:22 pm


OC Transpo’s controversial Confederation Line has faced multiple delays.

Engineering details have drawn public attention away from rampant corruption
The Confederation Line has been delayed yet again, ensuring that the city’s love-hate relationship with the project will continue for another few months.
The frustration is understandable—what was marketed as a city-changing project that would reinvent OC-Transpo has turned into a quagmire of poor communication, disruptive bus detours, and a barrage of criticism from local journalists.

If the CBC were your only source of O-train news, you would see a project in flames. A recently acquired internal report details breakdowns from trains that can’t handle the winter, leaking tunnels, incompetent supervisors, and a constant flow of missed deadlines casting doubt on whether the project will ever finish. To call this view inaccurate is a polite understatement. The project stinks, but it has nothing to do with construction—its the multi-national super-conglomerates running the show that we’ve all ignored.
The scandal in Ottawa’s O-Train construction isn’t the delays, or about whether the line will run. The scandal is that the city has allowed a process that gives multinational firms unimpeded permission to use every shady trick in their arsenal.

Many of the problems the media attacks come from leaked ‘deficiency reports’—inventories of construction issues made during a routine inspection. For those in construction, these reports are an almost menial part of a worksite and almost always result in redoing poor quality work. More often than not, a leaky tunnel is not an indicator of failed engineering—it just means your concrete-pouring temp worker didn’t mix the cement right.
Reports that the train doors freeze in the winter or can’t operate in the snow neglect critical context—the train in question was left on the track overnight in the middle of a record-smashing snow storm instead of resting in the heated garage.
Claims that trains are not ready also fall apart under scrutiny as progress reports often lack specifics. A train having its certification rejected could mean the wheels will fly off, or it could mean an indicator light bulb burnt out.

Every project of any significant scale has a laundry list of issues that must be addressed before opening to the public. Your own home almost certainly had a similar list made at some point, but like a metro line, they all have to be fixed before being handed off to the customer. The engineers at Alstom and SNC-Lavalin have made dozens of similar systems in every climate in the world, from Russia to Malaysia. Give their credentials the benefit of the doubt.

The Confederation Line delays do not come from some great incompetence—it comes from a judgment call from an executive that seeks to maximize profitability over public opinion.
When Rideau Transit Group (RTG) realized they would not meet the original deadline, they could have started working triple shifts and had the line out within a month or two. However, someone did the math and realized that public outrage over a delay was not worth the overtime pay that an accelerated schedule would bring.

Infrastructure development has always been a careful balancing act—corners need to be cut in ways that often shake public trust, and unanticipated issues need subpar solutions to stay on budget, but a project still needs to function well enough that the government won’t bar the company from future work.
The Confederation Line will open, and it will do its job because RTG knows how to play this game. The Alstom Citadis Spirit trains will work in the snow because to do otherwise would mean the manufacturer’s contracts in Toronto, Montreal, and St. Petersburg will evaporate.

This game isn’t unique to Ottawa, and residents of larger metros probably find our small-town idealism around construction rather quaint. Amsterdam’s Noord-Suid Line was delayed almost seven years over difficulty with soil conditions. London’s Elizabeth line is one of the most significant infrastructure investments in the UK’s history and is running over two years behind schedule. Cost overruns in Boston’s Big Dig project nearly resulted in the builders going bankrupt, leaving a literal hole in the middle of the city.

The city’s contracting system has been designed from the ground up to allow corruption to continue unimpeded beginning with the creation of RTG. The unassuming consortium won the bid to build the new line back in 2012 to an unspectacular public reaction. However, look behind the curtain, and RTG’s past starts to catch up to it.
The partnership serves as a kind of legal buffer between the project and the firms doing the real work, fulfilling a dual role as middleman and scapegoat. When the city wants to punish a company for issues during construction, who foots the bill on RTG’s end? Is it Elissdon, the Toronto-based construction firm that broke political lobbying rules to pass friendly legislation? Is it SNC-Lavalin, the global infrastructure developer who wooed Libya’s dictator with yachts and prostitutes? Is it Dragados, a pre-fab construction megacorp fined in Spain for price-fixing?

The actual answer is unclear because these companies are allowed and encouraged to hide behind their vaguely named shell instead of taking responsibility directly for their projects.
Even the contract negotiation for the project was done behind closed doors, without any serious input or transparency for city counsellors or the public. Basic questions like whether firms passed the city’s capacity test are unable to be answered in public to protect the bidder’s ‘competitive advantage.’
If the city wants more details from RTG on the line’s progress, they need to go through an approved communications process laid out in the Public-Private Partnership (P3) agreement that gives builders the freedom to all but outright lie about progress. Timelines, milestones and ongoing work can all be fudged because City Hall’s payment system incentivizes developers to do so.

Ottawa’s payment system to RTG is based on hitting key milestones, allegedly to encourage fast construction. Fines are also imposed for missed deadlines. However, in practice, this often results in businesses exaggerating progress in cinching their next payment transfer.
Decades of ‘business-friendly’ policy at all levels of government have created a system that allows corruption to flourish. Painting RTG as a gaggle of inept construction workers, flying by the seat of their pants on a project they are unequipped to deal with is foolish and irresponsible. It hides the very real issues plaguing not just Confederation Line, but all Canadian infrastructure—a contract system that allows, ignores and encourages shady dealing.

Rideau Transit Group is a clubhouse of incredibly smart, competent, determined people who have turned both train building and corruption into an art form. Confederation Line will open soon, and when it does, it will fundamentally change how this city moves. Ottawa will be dragged into the 21st century with a state-of-the-art, low-emissions, reliable LRT line.
The train will come out looking fine, but we are leaving our democracy on the tracks.
     
     
  #9737  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2019, 4:58 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeadingEdgeBoomer View Post
An interesting take on things from uOttawa's student newspaper the Fulcrum.

Public nitpicking of O-Train ignores systemic problems
Eric Davison 2019/03/12, 2:22 pm


OC Transpo’s controversial Confederation Line has faced multiple delays.

Engineering details have drawn public attention away from rampant corruption
The Confederation Line has been delayed yet again, ensuring that the city’s love-hate relationship with the project will continue for another few months.
The frustration is understandable—what was marketed as a city-changing project that would reinvent OC-Transpo has turned into a quagmire of poor communication, disruptive bus detours, and a barrage of criticism from local journalists.

If the CBC were your only source of O-train news, you would see a project in flames. A recently acquired internal report details breakdowns from trains that can’t handle the winter, leaking tunnels, incompetent supervisors, and a constant flow of missed deadlines casting doubt on whether the project will ever finish. To call this view inaccurate is a polite understatement. The project stinks, but it has nothing to do with construction—its the multi-national super-conglomerates running the show that we’ve all ignored.
The scandal in Ottawa’s O-Train construction isn’t the delays, or about whether the line will run. The scandal is that the city has allowed a process that gives multinational firms unimpeded permission to use every shady trick in their arsenal.

Many of the problems the media attacks come from leaked ‘deficiency reports’—inventories of construction issues made during a routine inspection. For those in construction, these reports are an almost menial part of a worksite and almost always result in redoing poor quality work. More often than not, a leaky tunnel is not an indicator of failed engineering—it just means your concrete-pouring temp worker didn’t mix the cement right.
Reports that the train doors freeze in the winter or can’t operate in the snow neglect critical context—the train in question was left on the track overnight in the middle of a record-smashing snow storm instead of resting in the heated garage.
Claims that trains are not ready also fall apart under scrutiny as progress reports often lack specifics. A train having its certification rejected could mean the wheels will fly off, or it could mean an indicator light bulb burnt out.

Every project of any significant scale has a laundry list of issues that must be addressed before opening to the public. Your own home almost certainly had a similar list made at some point, but like a metro line, they all have to be fixed before being handed off to the customer. The engineers at Alstom and SNC-Lavalin have made dozens of similar systems in every climate in the world, from Russia to Malaysia. Give their credentials the benefit of the doubt.

The Confederation Line delays do not come from some great incompetence—it comes from a judgment call from an executive that seeks to maximize profitability over public opinion.
When Rideau Transit Group (RTG) realized they would not meet the original deadline, they could have started working triple shifts and had the line out within a month or two. However, someone did the math and realized that public outrage over a delay was not worth the overtime pay that an accelerated schedule would bring.

Infrastructure development has always been a careful balancing act—corners need to be cut in ways that often shake public trust, and unanticipated issues need subpar solutions to stay on budget, but a project still needs to function well enough that the government won’t bar the company from future work.
The Confederation Line will open, and it will do its job because RTG knows how to play this game. The Alstom Citadis Spirit trains will work in the snow because to do otherwise would mean the manufacturer’s contracts in Toronto, Montreal, and St. Petersburg will evaporate.

This game isn’t unique to Ottawa, and residents of larger metros probably find our small-town idealism around construction rather quaint. Amsterdam’s Noord-Suid Line was delayed almost seven years over difficulty with soil conditions. London’s Elizabeth line is one of the most significant infrastructure investments in the UK’s history and is running over two years behind schedule. Cost overruns in Boston’s Big Dig project nearly resulted in the builders going bankrupt, leaving a literal hole in the middle of the city.

The city’s contracting system has been designed from the ground up to allow corruption to continue unimpeded beginning with the creation of RTG. The unassuming consortium won the bid to build the new line back in 2012 to an unspectacular public reaction. However, look behind the curtain, and RTG’s past starts to catch up to it.
The partnership serves as a kind of legal buffer between the project and the firms doing the real work, fulfilling a dual role as middleman and scapegoat. When the city wants to punish a company for issues during construction, who foots the bill on RTG’s end? Is it Elissdon, the Toronto-based construction firm that broke political lobbying rules to pass friendly legislation? Is it SNC-Lavalin, the global infrastructure developer who wooed Libya’s dictator with yachts and prostitutes? Is it Dragados, a pre-fab construction megacorp fined in Spain for price-fixing?

The actual answer is unclear because these companies are allowed and encouraged to hide behind their vaguely named shell instead of taking responsibility directly for their projects.
Even the contract negotiation for the project was done behind closed doors, without any serious input or transparency for city counsellors or the public. Basic questions like whether firms passed the city’s capacity test are unable to be answered in public to protect the bidder’s ‘competitive advantage.’
If the city wants more details from RTG on the line’s progress, they need to go through an approved communications process laid out in the Public-Private Partnership (P3) agreement that gives builders the freedom to all but outright lie about progress. Timelines, milestones and ongoing work can all be fudged because City Hall’s payment system incentivizes developers to do so.

Ottawa’s payment system to RTG is based on hitting key milestones, allegedly to encourage fast construction. Fines are also imposed for missed deadlines. However, in practice, this often results in businesses exaggerating progress in cinching their next payment transfer.
Decades of ‘business-friendly’ policy at all levels of government have created a system that allows corruption to flourish. Painting RTG as a gaggle of inept construction workers, flying by the seat of their pants on a project they are unequipped to deal with is foolish and irresponsible. It hides the very real issues plaguing not just Confederation Line, but all Canadian infrastructure—a contract system that allows, ignores and encourages shady dealing.

Rideau Transit Group is a clubhouse of incredibly smart, competent, determined people who have turned both train building and corruption into an art form. Confederation Line will open soon, and when it does, it will fundamentally change how this city moves. Ottawa will be dragged into the 21st century with a state-of-the-art, low-emissions, reliable LRT line.
The train will come out looking fine, but we are leaving our democracy on the tracks.
Now this article I really agree with. At risk of being called a shill again, I really thought the CBC reporting was making mountains of things out of context, this is the far more realistic take on the real problems here.
     
     
  #9738  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2019, 10:40 PM
pattherat pattherat is offline
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Trains out in the snow by the way. Both earlier and currently...
     
     
  #9739  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2019, 10:55 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by pattherat View Post
Trains out in the snow by the way. Both earlier and currently...
I was just going to ask that question. I am glad to hear that. This is progress.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Mar 13, 2019 at 11:06 PM.
     
     
  #9740  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2019, 11:05 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by kmcamp View Post
Now this article I really agree with. At risk of being called a shill again, I really thought the CBC reporting was making mountains of things out of context, this is the far more realistic take on the real problems here.
This is all part of balanced reporting. We should welcome different viewpoints to get better idea of what is the truth.


This is far better than next to no information or just plain BS, which is what we were getting from RTG and the city until recently.
     
     
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