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  #9601  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 1:57 AM
passwordisnt123 passwordisnt123 is offline
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Originally Posted by kmcamp View Post
Don't take my ranting for calling for a muzzling of the press. I just dislike having to parse out what's happening between one group saying everything is peachy and the other saying the sky is falling
You just described a necessary aspect of life in the digital age. Being a wise and discerning consumer of news means you should always be parsing what one group says and considering it against other groups on all subjects, not just this one.
     
     
  #9602  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 2:36 AM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Sadly, you might be right on Stage 2.
I wouldn't want to be a councilor right now, they are really in between a rock and a hard place. It really looks like the SNC Lavalin tempest is going to topple the Trudeau Liberals. With that the funding guarantee goes with it. Who knows what the next government would do

If they vote yes then we're going in blind, since we still don't have phase 1 done. This situation couldn't be much worse
     
     
  #9603  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 2:51 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Originally Posted by kmcamp View Post
I wouldn't want to be a councilor right now, they are really in between a rock and a hard place. It really looks like the SNC Lavalin tempest is going to topple the Trudeau Liberals. With that the funding guarantee goes with it. Who knows what the next government would do

If they vote yes then we're going in blind, since we still don't have phase 1 done. This situation couldn't be much worse
I am thinking that as long as the Liberals or NDP are a minority government, we might see the funding maintained. If it is the Conservatives or PPC, kiss those federal dollars goodbye.
     
     
  #9604  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 2:55 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by kmcamp View Post
I wouldn't want to be a councilor right now, they are really in between a rock and a hard place. It really looks like the SNC Lavalin tempest is going to topple the Trudeau Liberals. With that the funding guarantee goes with it. Who knows what the next government would do

If they vote yes then we're going in blind, since we still don't have phase 1 done. This situation couldn't be much worse
I think Jimbo will bully the council into rubberstamping this sight unseen. Best hope at this the province withholds funding until the city can demonstrate it can get phase 1 up and running.
     
     
  #9605  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 4:17 AM
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Its unlikely the Ford government cares or knows enough to do that.
     
     
  #9606  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 5:34 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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So, Phase 2 is already delayed by 2 years. How many more years are we now going to face?
     
     
  #9607  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
So, Phase 2 is already delayed by 2 years. How many more years are we now going to face?
You of all people should know how long if the plan collapses. We're at what, 9 years and counting since the 2006 plan would have opened?

I think the best case scenario would be at least 2 or 3 more years, if nothing about the plan changed technically and they had to go back and renegotiate funding and contracts. However more likely, they would reevaluate parts of the plan that seem pointless, like the airport extension, and the debate on cleary station would reopen. That's why I predict at least a decade before construction begins again, people in the west end are going to be doing the Tunney's pasture transfer for quite some time.

I'm not convinced Jimbo can bully the council into approving the current plan now. We'll be like Edmonton was, with a rump of a rail system, though hopefully not for a generation.

Last edited by kmcamp; Mar 5, 2019 at 11:47 AM.
     
     
  #9608  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 12:17 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by kmcamp View Post
So I'm adding to my prediction: I still say stage 1 will open in May. However I also predict council will vote down stage 2, the federal election will cause the funding to dry up, and it will be at least a decade before more rail is built.
Would you support paring down phase 2 to get it back under budget to prevent this obviously disastrous outcome?

Personally I would vote no to the current Phase 2 plan and would support the provincial government refusing funding for the current project. As much as Baird's interference cost us many years in 2006 I think it is justified in this case. We do no need a spur to Baseline. We can live without an airport spur. We do not need to spend millions of dollars on a tunnel under a field because of nimby neighbours (and an intransigent NCC). All this an maybe an eliminated station or two in each direction and we could be back under budget. The funds will play ball quickly and Province should agree as well though they may be keen to push baseline to have LRT enter MacLeod's riding.

Another option would be to eliminate in its entirety the North South Extension. In some respects this is lipstick on a pig as it has inherent limitations which means spending good many after bad might not make sense. For the $1billion + maybe a North South conversion of Transitway from Hurdman south makes more sense to integrate southern bus routes and park and ride at somewhere like Heron. Hope for something like this as phase 3.
     
     
  #9609  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 12:36 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
Another option would be to eliminate in its entirety the North South Extension. In some respects this is lipstick on a pig as it has inherent limitations which means spending good many after bad might not make sense.
And what of the capacity issues on the Trillium Line in the meantime?

Quote:
For the $1billion + maybe a North South conversion of Transitway from Hurdman south makes more sense to integrate southern bus routes and park and ride at somewhere like Heron. Hope for something like this as phase 3.
No, absolutely not. The south end is still far better served by buses that can then hop on the transitway to get to Hurdman than it will be by rail. That may be true forever.

Plus Heron is not the place to build a P&R.
     
     
  #9610  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
Would you support paring down phase 2 to get it back under budget to prevent this obviously disastrous outcome?

Personally I would vote no to the current Phase 2 plan and would support the provincial government refusing funding for the current project. As much as Baird's interference cost us many years in 2006 I think it is justified in this case. We do no need a spur to Baseline. We can live without an airport spur. We do not need to spend millions of dollars on a tunnel under a field because of nimby neighbours (and an intransigent NCC). All this an maybe an eliminated station or two in each direction and we could be back under budget. The funds will play ball quickly and Province should agree as well though they may be keen to push baseline to have LRT enter MacLeod's riding.

Another option would be to eliminate in its entirety the North South Extension. In some respects this is lipstick on a pig as it has inherent limitations which means spending good many after bad might not make sense. For the $1billion + maybe a North South conversion of Transitway from Hurdman south makes more sense to integrate southern bus routes and park and ride at somewhere like Heron. Hope for something like this as phase 3.
I think we're too late for that. I can see a silver lining that we may end up with something far better than the current trillium line plan, but it does mean transit will suffer even more in the meantime.

When stage 2 gets built, either with this plan or another, it will also be a raging disaster, since were currently 3 for 3 on the rail department and no matter what we think we learn from this round the next one will also go horribly off plan given our track record

But I'd also say the spur to baseline is more important than the spur to moodie.
     
     
  #9611  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 12:45 PM
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5 LRT questions we need answered
An update at this morning's finance committee offers the chance for accountability

Joanne Chianello · CBC News
Posted: Mar 05, 2019 5:44 AM ET | Last Updated: an hour ago


With this week's news that the $2.1-billion LRT project is facing more serious challenges than the public was led to believe — including the startling tidbit that light rail cars are "currently unreliable" — it's clear we must make louder demands for more accurate accounting of this massive project.

We can't count on Rideau Transit Group, the SNC Lavalin-led consortium building the Confederation Line.

Its CEO, Peter Lauch, has told the city three times it would be able to meet its deadline when, it retrospect, he should have known it could not.

That leaves us looking to senior city staff for answers.

Sure, OC Transpo boss John Manconi said last month he was "highly skeptical" that RTG would meet its March 31 deadline, but only after Coun. Diane Deans asked him a pointed question about 90 minutes after the meeting started.

Evidently, it's vital to ask precise questions.


Here are five key ones we need answered at Tuesday's LRT update.

1. How many light rail cars are actually being tested?

Our light rail system is supposed to include 34 individual rail cars; two cars are to be put together into a single train set.

Ultimately, up to 15 train sets will be operating on the track at a time, with two trains in reserve.

On Friday, the city's rail director Michael Morgan said that 24 cars have been signed off as ready to go (up from just 14 last month).

But there have never been more than 12 cars on the track at once. Why? If 24 are supposed to work, why can't workers get them all on the track?

Remember, we're supposed to be able to run 30 cars — or 15 train sets — at a one time.

And what is the hold up with the 10 cars that are not even allowed on the track?


2. How well do they work?

While Morgan said that the rail folks have as many as 12 cars on the track, it's not clear how they well are working.

How long — as in, how many minutes — can each one operate?

There is no evidence that cars have been running from one end of the track at Blair station to the other end, 12.5-kilometres away, at Tunney's Pasture station.

Is there something wrong with the cars? Or is the problem with the track? Or the overhead electrical system? Or perhaps the tunnel is the issue?

Maybe it's all of the above.

Another concern: not a single train set — that's two cars linked together — has run along the track. Why not?


3. What's the problem with snow?

CBC has reported issues with the cars operating in the snow, including an internal report that says the light rail vehicles are "currently unreliable to the point that it has not been demonstrated that operations can be sustained during a winter weather event."

Reports obtained by CBC describe how snow gets packed into the bogie, the underframe of the rail car that holds the wheels, which prevents it from moving.

One daily incident report recommended that cars not drive over 35 mm of snow.

Are these cars — a new design by France-based Alstom called the Citadis Spirit, which has never been tested before — appropriate for Ottawa winters? Are they in need of major modifications?

And how's the rest of the system standing up to Old Man Winter? Reports show that switch heaters aren't always working and there are issues with snow plowing, which appears to take too long.

Finally, what guarantee do we have that when RTG does finally hand over the light-rail system, it will actually work next winter?

As the weather warms, perhaps the light rail cars and the rail system begin to work more reliably, and RTG hands over the keys in the summer or fall.

How will we know that it fixed all the winter kinks?


4. What's a realistic end date?

Not one that RTG gives us. One that the city's own staff provides.

The city's rail staff, which includes engineers and technicians, are working on the project.

There are daily incident reports and weekly to-do lists that are compiled and distributed to those in charge.

Surely when senior transportation staff — not to mention the independent experts we've hired — consider what still needs doing, they can come up with an estimate on how much longer it will take?

Is it weeks, months, or many months?

No one expects city managers to name a specific date, but it is not too much to ask that the people charged with overseeing the Confederation Line construction give us a range for when we can expect the project to be completed?


5. Who knew what when?

Which brings us to our final question: who is accountable for this lack of transparency?

That a massive project like the LRT is a year late may be a disappointment, but it isn't a huge surprise.

Many of us are taken aback, however, by the suppression of comprehensive information provided to the councillors and the public.

Manconi volunteered little on the sorts of issues documented in reports revealed this week, even though he must have been aware of the problems.

Why does he seem to believe his responsibility is only to answer questions that are posed, and even then, in the most narrow manner conceivable?

Why, when last month Lauch said RTG could finish the project by the end of March, did Manconi not list in detail for councillors why that wasn't going to happen?

Mayor Jim Watson said as recently as November that he had "great confidence" that the city could take control of the LRT by the end of March. On what basis did he make that claim?

Was Watson simply taking RTG at its word? Or was it wishful thinking on his part? Or was the mayor not being told the truth by those reporting to him?

None of the possible answers are acceptable.

Which is why we'll ask these questions again —in hopes of this time, getting more straightforward answers.

Joanne Chianello is an award-winning journalist and CBC Ottawa's city affairs analyst. You can email her at [email protected] or tweet her at @jchianello.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/5-questions-lrt-ottawa-launch-1.5042698
     
     
  #9612  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 1:00 PM
GoTrans GoTrans is offline
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[QUOTE=acottawa;8494418] As I said in an earlier post, running a full transit service 24 hours would be extremely expensive and get little ridership and could make maintence difficult.

Maintenance would not be any more difficult if the service window was extended because most of the fleet would be in the yards overnight. Personally I do not see the point of 24/7 service, but the hours of service could be extended to 1:00 every night and start at 5:00 or 5:30 every day with negligible impact to maintenance. Even if service was 24/7 there would probably not be sufficient volume to make it cost effective. The frequency of service would still have to be reduced during the night making the service less useful, convenient and most importantly safe, particularly for women. It is for this reason that most people on night shifts that can afford it drive to/form work. You will never convince these people to take transit.
     
     
  #9613  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 1:02 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
5 LRT questions we need answered
An update at this morning's finance committee offers the chance for accountability

Joanne Chianello · CBC News
Posted: Mar 05, 2019 5:44 AM ET | Last Updated: an hour ago


With this week's news that the $2.1-billion LRT project is facing more serious challenges than the public was led to believe — including the startling tidbit that light rail cars are "currently unreliable" — it's clear we must make louder demands for more accurate accounting of this massive project.

We can't count on Rideau Transit Group, the SNC Lavalin-led consortium building the Confederation Line.

Its CEO, Peter Lauch, has told the city three times it would be able to meet its deadline when, it retrospect, he should have known it could not.

That leaves us looking to senior city staff for answers.

Sure, OC Transpo boss John Manconi said last month he was "highly skeptical" that RTG would meet its March 31 deadline, but only after Coun. Diane Deans asked him a pointed question about 90 minutes after the meeting started.

Evidently, it's vital to ask precise questions.


Here are five key ones we need answered at Tuesday's LRT update.

1. How many light rail cars are actually being tested?

Our light rail system is supposed to include 34 individual rail cars; two cars are to be put together into a single train set.

Ultimately, up to 15 train sets will be operating on the track at a time, with two trains in reserve.

On Friday, the city's rail director Michael Morgan said that 24 cars have been signed off as ready to go (up from just 14 last month).

But there have never been more than 12 cars on the track at once. Why? If 24 are supposed to work, why can't workers get them all on the track?

Remember, we're supposed to be able to run 30 cars — or 15 train sets — at a one time.

And what is the hold up with the 10 cars that are not even allowed on the track?


2. How well do they work?

While Morgan said that the rail folks have as many as 12 cars on the track, it's not clear how they well are working.

How long — as in, how many minutes — can each one operate?

There is no evidence that cars have been running from one end of the track at Blair station to the other end, 12.5-kilometres away, at Tunney's Pasture station.

Is there something wrong with the cars? Or is the problem with the track? Or the overhead electrical system? Or perhaps the tunnel is the issue?

Maybe it's all of the above.

Another concern: not a single train set — that's two cars linked together — has run along the track. Why not?


3. What's the problem with snow?

CBC has reported issues with the cars operating in the snow, including an internal report that says the light rail vehicles are "currently unreliable to the point that it has not been demonstrated that operations can be sustained during a winter weather event."

Reports obtained by CBC describe how snow gets packed into the bogie, the underframe of the rail car that holds the wheels, which prevents it from moving.

One daily incident report recommended that cars not drive over 35 mm of snow.

Are these cars — a new design by France-based Alstom called the Citadis Spirit, which has never been tested before — appropriate for Ottawa winters? Are they in need of major modifications?

And how's the rest of the system standing up to Old Man Winter? Reports show that switch heaters aren't always working and there are issues with snow plowing, which appears to take too long.

Finally, what guarantee do we have that when RTG does finally hand over the light-rail system, it will actually work next winter?

As the weather warms, perhaps the light rail cars and the rail system begin to work more reliably, and RTG hands over the keys in the summer or fall.

How will we know that it fixed all the winter kinks?


4. What's a realistic end date?

Not one that RTG gives us. One that the city's own staff provides.

The city's rail staff, which includes engineers and technicians, are working on the project.

There are daily incident reports and weekly to-do lists that are compiled and distributed to those in charge.

Surely when senior transportation staff — not to mention the independent experts we've hired — consider what still needs doing, they can come up with an estimate on how much longer it will take?

Is it weeks, months, or many months?

No one expects city managers to name a specific date, but it is not too much to ask that the people charged with overseeing the Confederation Line construction give us a range for when we can expect the project to be completed?


5. Who knew what when?

Which brings us to our final question: who is accountable for this lack of transparency?

That a massive project like the LRT is a year late may be a disappointment, but it isn't a huge surprise.

Many of us are taken aback, however, by the suppression of comprehensive information provided to the councillors and the public.

Manconi volunteered little on the sorts of issues documented in reports revealed this week, even though he must have been aware of the problems.

Why does he seem to believe his responsibility is only to answer questions that are posed, and even then, in the most narrow manner conceivable?

Why, when last month Lauch said RTG could finish the project by the end of March, did Manconi not list in detail for councillors why that wasn't going to happen?

Mayor Jim Watson said as recently as November that he had "great confidence" that the city could take control of the LRT by the end of March. On what basis did he make that claim?

Was Watson simply taking RTG at its word? Or was it wishful thinking on his part? Or was the mayor not being told the truth by those reporting to him?

None of the possible answers are acceptable.

Which is why we'll ask these questions again —in hopes of this time, getting more straightforward answers.

Joanne Chianello is an award-winning journalist and CBC Ottawa's city affairs analyst. You can email her at [email protected] or tweet her at @jchianello.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/5-questions-lrt-ottawa-launch-1.5042698
Umm, they definitely have run linked trainsets, and there's videos to prove it, and many of the people on this board have seen them. She definitely is missing some of her research
     
     
  #9614  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 1:05 PM
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J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
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Originally Posted by CityTech View Post
Its unlikely the Ford government cares or knows enough to do that.
Either that, or it's an easy billion to "save" by claiming it's not worth investing in an unproven system.
     
     
  #9615  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 1:17 PM
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CBC reports there haven't been any double trains running on the tracks, but I've seen several over the last year (nothing to boast about, but the report is still inaccurate).

EDIT: kmcamp beat me to it.
     
     
  #9616  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 1:36 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Either that, or it's an easy billion to "save" by claiming it's not worth investing in an unproven system.
I don't think they'll interfere, really they don't care outside of the GTA. That being said, if council says no, they'll say "the people spoke" and yank away the funding we no longer want, forcing us to the back of the line again. We're really in a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation.
     
     
  #9617  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 2:30 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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Everyone is talking about 'sight unseen' and 'missing information' and 'haven't reviewed the design' but then one of the articles mentioned the +50 consultation meetings and design briefs supplied to get to this moment in time.

Sure some of the stations have been changed a little bit (Cleary moved 100ft to the centre of the park) etc. but those are all engineering cost saving measures. There's a lady complaining that the station isn't completely underground. Does she realize that a fully underground station requires HVAC systems that need maintenance and electricity costs, security increases, fire saving measures, and a host of other millions of dollars in cost? The design was always open-air stations, and now she's dissappointed she didn't get her design at a local NIMBY rant meeting... I can remember seeing much of this design laid out on the Stage 2 website ages and ages ago. Architecture of the stations aside, the layout really hasn't changed.

And then we all cry "why is it costing so much??" without considering that if we all got what we wanted on our wish list, the costs would go way up and the project wouldn't get off the ground. Now, did SNC Lavalin and their group do an analysis and determine the maximum the governments would pay and still continue the project? Probably. But they're still the low bidder. Sure, lets spend an extra billion and go with the 2nd bidder. No problemo there, we'll just pull this extra billion out of our back pocket. (sarcasm)

I don't understand why these Councillors are all pretending they haven't been consulted. The new Councillors, sure, they had some reading to do to catch up on the current plan. Most were on council during this entire frigging process, and are just now protesting that they don't know what's going on. Doesn't make any sense. Like its a sudden surprise that they'll have to vote on a contract that's been out for tender for almost 2 years?? Sounds like they're just trying to pass the buck and not take responsibility.

And another thing! (angry old man rant heats up) What kind of vehicle works perfectly 100% of the time, especially in inclement weather?? NONE I tell you, NONE! Big whoop, some of the hiccups in commissioning some of the trains. This is exactly why the RTG doesn't want to tell anyone anything, because people are idiots and have no idea what they're talking about, and people being idiots, they LOVE to bitch and complain about things that sound scandalous on the surface, but for knowledgeable people, are issues that are completely normal.

So there!
     
     
  #9618  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
CBC reports there haven't been any double trains running on the tracks, but I've seen several over the last year (nothing to boast about, but the report is still inaccurate).

EDIT: kmcamp beat me to it.
To get home every night, I exit the Queensway at Riverside and Tremblay. I see double trains all the time by the train station doing their test runs. This reporter should have checked their facts. They have been running the double trains for a while now.
     
     
  #9619  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 3:14 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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I agree with most of your points. It's ridiculous the changes that people demand and then never consider the citywide impact or cost escalation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
And another thing! (angry old man rant heats up) What kind of vehicle works perfectly 100% of the time, especially in inclement weather?? NONE I tell you, NONE! Big whoop, some of the hiccups in commissioning some of the trains.
I honestly think they would have had an easier time if they'd gone with heavy rail subway cars instead. What's messing them up is having to use LRVs designed to operate with vehicles in milder weather.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
This is exactly why the RTG doesn't want to tell anyone anything, because people are idiots and have no idea what they're talking about, and people being idiots, they LOVE to bitch and complain about things that sound scandalous on the surface, but for knowledgeable people, are issues that are completely normal.

So there!
I vehemently disagree. RTG is being both irresponsible and unethical in covering up issues. And probably doing so to their financial benefit. Every multi-billion dollar project will have politicians involved. No contractor should get to dodge their responsibility for transparency because some of those politicians can't exercise reasonable oversight at times.
     
     
  #9620  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 3:24 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
I honestly think they would have had an easier time if they'd gone with heavy rail subway cars instead. What's messing them up is having to use LRVs designed to operate with vehicles in milder weather.
Maybe...but the heavy rail department in North America isn't exactly blistering with tales of success either in recent years. You'd think with two centuries of experience with rail technology we'd be better at it by now.

https://nowtoronto.com/news/glitches-persist-on-ttcs-new-subways/

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-n...tro-trains-first-noticed-in-december-stm

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article197945004.html

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/07/honolulus-rapid-transit-crisis/534150/
     
     
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