Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by elly63

Apparently little Regina (and every other sizeable city in Canada) has somehow figured out how to build the best stadium in Canada without bankrupting the city. And yet with all the higher education facilities in Halifax (one of which I attended), they can't figure it out?

Too bad this wasn't for soccer (which you constantly reference) like in the auld country eh, Colin? You'd take 30 seconds to figure out how to build it.

I know you have reading skills. Apparently your comprehension skills need significant improvement. I have said several times on this forum and mostly in reponse to your obsession re soccer that I don't support subsidies for professional sports, never have and never will.

At December 31 2013 Regina had $77.2 million long term debt
At December 31 2014 Regina had $228 million long term debt
At December 31 2015 Regina had $271.6 million long term debt
At December 31 2016 Regina had $293.5 million long term debt

At December 31 2013 Regina had net financial assets of $107.9 million
At December 31 2014 Regina had net financial assets of $52 million and a year later they were in net debt to the tune of $69.7 million

See pages 69-71 of the City of Regina 2017 Annual Report here :
file:///C:/Users/NewUser/Downloads/2017-annual-report%20(1).pdf

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Colin May

I know you have reading skills. Apparently your comprehension skills need significant improvement. I have said several times on this forum and mostly in reponse to your obsession re soccer that I don't support subsidies for professional sports, never have and never will.

Oh, I comprehend all right, I just like to cut to the chase and not try and couch my agenda with diversionary and non relevant BS

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by elly63

Oh, I comprehend all right, I just like to cut to the chase and not try and couch my agenda with diversionary and non relevant BS

But do you understand the numbers and how they affect Regina ?

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Colin May

But do you understand the numbers and how they affect Regina ?

Why do you try and cloud this issue, you obviously don't want a stadium, man up and say so.

How is it that Halifax can't have infrastructure that every other liked sized city in the country has, it's embarrassing the can don't attitude that people like you represent. I never thought I'd see the day that Moncton would be a more progressive place than Halifax.

You can quote every BS figure you want to obfuscate the fact you don't want a stadium, because you can't admit that but at least don't patronize us with garbage like children will be deprived of their education if it is built.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by elly63

Why do you try and cloud this issue, you obviously don't want a stadium, man up and say so.

How is it that Halifax can't have infrastructure that every other liked sized city in the country has, it's embarrassing the can don't attitude that people like you represent. I never thought I'd see the day that Moncton would be a more progressive place than Halifax.

You can quote every BS figure you want to obfuscate the fact you don't want a stadium, because you can't admit that but at least don't patronize us with garbage like children will be deprived of their education if it is built.

I never said anything about children being deprived of an education.
Numbers are numbers, they may be BS to people who don't understand what they mean and how they fit in the overall spending of HRM.
I don't want to pay for a stadium. Most members of council don't want to pay for a stadium.
Moncton is not as progressive as Halifax and never will be because it is not as an attractive place as HRM.
Most people in HRM think $120,000,000 can be better spent over a longer period without the debt becoming a hindrance to the making of a better community for all citizens.
Stop 100 people on the street and ask them if they would rather live in Moncton.

[Dartguard]

I think better yet Elly, please express why a Stadium is a such a positive addition to the city? Better yet how much fiscal tolerance are you willing to argue for and list the other "things'' that fall second, third and so on in your list of priorities.
Colin may have a non Stadium bias but at least he is willing to develop an argument. Too bad that you seem to have an Anti England Bias for his argument start off points . Go with what YOU know to develop yours please.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

I think better yet Elly, please express why a Stadium is a such a positive addition to the city? Better yet how much fiscal tolerance are you willing to argue for and list the other "things'' that fall second, third and so on in your list of priorities.
Colin may have a non Stadium bias but at least he is willing to develop an argument. Too bad that you seem to have an Anti England Bias for his argument start off points . Go with what YOU know to develop yours please.

Everything I say has been based on Colin's posts, if you have read this thread. His railing on about English stadiums which has nothing to do with here is posted earlier in the thread.

I think you can Google generic points as to why a stadium is a positive addition to any city but don't confuse that with a money making venture, I have never and will never say that.

It's not up to me or Colin to decide fiscal tolerance, that is for the elected representatives representing their constituencies to decide. Sure we can have opinions but we can certainly question motivations and viewpoints.

I want a stadium, he doesn't, simple as that, I just think he is being disingenuous in his posts. I'm not going to BS anybody with all these great altruistic reasons why there should be a stadium, as I said you could Google that.

If Colin is willing to develop an argument and not post a bunch of irrelevant bullshit, why don't you just come out and say I don't want a stadium and we can't afford it and save everybody the agro of trying to decipher most of his irrelevant inanities.

Edit: I just noticed he said he doesn't want to pay for a stadium, the truth comes out. Fine, now we know where we stand.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by elly63

How is it that Halifax can't have infrastructure that every other liked sized city in the country has, it's embarrassing the can don't attitude that people like you represent. I never thought I'd see the day that Moncton would be a more progressive place than Halifax.

I hate to dump on Halifax but the 'can't do' attitude in Halifax is a big reason so many young people leave. The culture there is excruciatingly conservative and resistant to change. After university, a huge chunk get fed up and leave for more progressive/ambitious places. Of the 10-12 people in my close circle, only 1 stayed in Halifax although she's temporarily in Qatar.

I like Halifax but every time I visit it becomes painfully obvious why I left. That Halifax has been talking about getting a pro football team for almost 40 years speaks volumes. What sane person is going to wait that long?

[someone123]

Mosaic Stadium cost around $280M to build and is much more elaborate than what is proposed for Halifax. Regina has about half the population of Halifax. The effective cost per capita of Mosaic is 4 times that of the Halifax stadium proposal.

Capital expenses don't have to go onto the debt. Every year HRM builds new infrastructure with revenues from that year. HRM's capital budget is around $130M. In other words the stadium represents about a year's worth of capital expenses for the city.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Colin May

I never said anything about children being deprived of an education.

"We need some significant spending in schools in low income areas to help children obtain better literacy and math skills, the situation is quite grim in too many schools." I worked in the school system, children obtain better math and literacy skills when it is inculcated at home. The Los Angeles school district had one of the higher per student expenditure costs in the US (and pretty much the worst results)

Originally Posted by Colin May

Most members of council don't want to pay for a stadium.

That's your opinion, you don't know that. I am more than willing to accept that may be the case but I'm not going to project my opinion on to them. If they build it I'll be happy if they don't life will go on and Halifax will have blown another opportunity.

Originally Posted by Colin May

Moncton is not as progressive as Halifax and never will be because it is not as an attractive place as HRM.

I'd love to read your explanation on that but I don't want to see a city report with the yearly balance sheet from Prince George BC as a way to explain why Halifax is more "attractive"

Originally Posted by Colin May

Most people in HRM think $120,000,000 can be better spent over a longer period without the debt becoming a hindrance to the making of a better community for all citizens.

Really, you have the numbers on that or is that just Abe Simpson's opinion.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I hate to dump on Halifax but the 'can't do' attitude in Halifax is a big reason so many young people leave.

And why Moncton is growing, a can-do attitude. The Greater Moncton Area represents the sixth-fastest growing economy in all of Canada, and the fastest growth east of Toronto.

This isn't a Moncton vs Halifax argument for me, I've lived in both and each has their strengths and weaknesses. If Halifax doesn't build the stadium that's fine with me, but that says something and it isn't progressive to me to be proud of not building infrastructure because they supposedly can't afford it and every other city in the country has found a way.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by elly63

If Halifax doesn't build the stadium that's fine with me, but that says something and it isn't progressive to me to be proud of not building infrastructure because they supposedly can't afford it and every other city in the country has found a way.

Each city has different infrastructure and different priorities though, and lots of smaller cities don't have major stadiums. London, Kitchener, and Victoria don't. Quebec City has no CFL team and is significantly larger.

Moncton's kind of strange to talk about because they don't have any plans to build a major stadium either. Moncton's stadium cost around $20M to build and is not suitable for a CFL team.

[Dartguard]

Interesting perspective isaidso but I would argue that that attitude is beginning to change. For so much of Halifax's history there has been an association with usually bad things happening from the conquering of French or early American regimes to World Wars and the lower economics activity in between. Throw in an Explosion that set Halifax back decades and perhaps its reasonable to think that things need to be Conservative as positive things are hard to find root here.

I would argue that three new developments have driven the new Halifax that has sprouted up around us. All of them in a sense are from away. Harper awarding the Shipyard contract to Irving has solidified an Industrial base for the city for the next 30 years. More importantly it has cemented the Halifax region as a high tech Defence
hub with such World leading Defence giants such as Lockheed Martin, L3, Pratt and Whitney, General Dynamics not to mention IMP and of Course Irving. We tend not to notice their presence round here.


The strong Lebanese Canadian commitment to risking their hard earned savings and taking Halifax to another level with new projects, is creating an energy around the City that is palatable. Credit to Rodney Macdonald for ramming Halifax by design down councils throat. The third element is the influx of Foreign students and their cash that has transformed the University's, Real estate and the culinary scene in the city. Thankyou China and Saudi.

Word is getting out across Canada that we have an enviable quality of life with reasonable housing prices, a growing tech sector, a great place to raise children and a better place then it was when boomers went West in the Eighties. Selling a house in TO or Calgary and pub crawling with the proceeds is not a bad way to retire. When you have enough of that hop on a Plane to N.Y., Chicago, London, Boston, Paris,Tampa, Orlando, Frankfurt, Dublin, Glasgow or Reykjavik. Non stop.

I leave for London in three weeks.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

Moncton's kind of strange to talk about because they don't have any plans to build a major stadium either. Moncton's stadium cost around $20M to build and is not suitable for a CFL team.

And Moncton wouldn't build a new stadium (or expand the current 10,000 seat stadium) without a viable tenant.

We did however scrounge up about $120M or so for a new downtown arena (and this was just the City of Moncton, not the entire CMA), so since Halifax apparently has a guaranteed tenant (the Schooners), I can't understand why HRM (population ~420,000) can't afford the same amount of money as the City of Moncton (population 70,000) for a bare boned professional football stadium. It smacks to me of complacency, inertia and lack of ambition..........

[elly63]

Originally Posted by someone123

Each city has different infrastructure and different priorities though, and lots of smaller cities don't have major stadiums. London, Kitchener, and Victoria don't.

Moncton's kind of strange to talk about because they don't have any plans to build a major stadium either. Moncton's stadium cost around $20M to build and is not suitable for a CFL team.

Agree with the first sentence but disagree about London and maybe Victoria, I guess it would come down to the definition of what is a major stadium. Mine would be an admittedly very generalized definition of a fairly modern outdoor stadium with basic amenities. I would only advocate a professional size stadium for a professional team, but that doesn't detract from TD Stadium and Royal Athletic Park or Centennial Stadium being good outdoor facilities but you'd probably know that better than me.

Moncton's stadium is not suitable for the CFL long term but they did purchase temporary stands and can host large events and even be an ad hoc host for a CFL team as Guelph was for the TiCats. I'm not advocating that as a solution because I don't like the idea that some float around of Moncton hosting a team for a year or two before going to Halifax.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

We did however scrounge up about $120M or so for a new downtown arena (and this was just the City of Moncton, not the entire CMA), so since Halifax apparently has a guaranteed tenant (the Schooners), I can't understand why HRM (population ~420,000) can't afford the same amount of money as the City of Moncton (population 70,000) for a bare boned professional football stadium. It smacks to me of complacency, inertia and lack of ambition..........

The primary person saying HRM can't afford it is Colin May. There's been no report or council vote yet.

There's also something a bit ironic about jumping to conclusions about how the city won't build anything because it's too full of naysayers! Nobody knows what will happen later this year.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by someone123

The primary person saying HRM can't afford it is Colin May. There's been no report or council vote yet.

There's also something a bit ironic about jumping to conclusions about how the city won't build anything because it's too full of naysayers! Nobody knows what will happen later this year.

Agreed, we know nothing as of this point. Actually isn't there a poll in this thread that shows people are pretty amenable to the idea.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Interesting perspective isaidso but I would argue that that attitude is beginning to change.

It's been changing for a long time. Even in 2007 the city was not like it was during the 90's dark age. By 2010 things started to pick up a lot and in recent years the pace of change reminds me of what I am used to seeing in Toronto or Vancouver. Halifax is really going to be a different city in 5 or 10 years from what it is now, and unless something changes infrastructure like a stadium is just going to get easier and easier to build.

Another change is that Nova Scotia is becoming an increasingly urban province where most people live in and around the major centre, like most other provinces.

[Hali87]

Lack of stadium and rapid transit aside, Halifax in recent years does not seem particularly conservative or resistant to change compared to most other cities in Canada. Tedious, maybe, but that's not really the same thing. Montreal, Vancouver, Victoria, Calgary feel more progressive to me than Halifax. Toronto and Ottawa feel about the same. Everywhere else in Canada that I've been to feels less progressive than here in most ways tbh. And even the cities that feel more progressive likely have some qualities that locals complain about as being backwards and limiting.

There does seem to be a larger/growing 20-40 year old population (I think someone posted some stats a while back) and I think this is both a cause and effect of the shift in attitudes. Another has been the change in leadership from Peter Kelly to Mike Savage. I've definitely felt a shift in public discourse over the last 10-15 years from preserving the city's integrity to unlocking its potential.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Montreal, Vancouver, Victoria, Calgary feel more progressive to me than Halifax.

My subjective take is that Vancouver gets more done when it comes to transit but is less progressive than Halifax when it comes to allowing development.

The race is on now to see which gets torn down first, the Georgia Street viaduct or Cogswell. I originally expected the viaduct to be gone and rebuilt while Cogswell was still under interminable study but that's not how it's gone so far. The comparison might be a bit unfair since they may be at different points in their life cycle.

The political debates in BC are very very similar to NS, with the exception of the real estate and money laundering stuff. I expected politics to somehow be "bigger league" here but that's just not how it is. They're contemplating adding a new express bus in West Vancouver and the debate's been dominated by complainers, probably with an average age above 60 (not that there's anything wrong with older people having a say, but there is something wrong if they crowd out the voices of the people who would actually use the service). HST, which NS has had for ages, was rejected here in a plebiscite, so we still have arcane rules on what does and doesn't get hit with PST. Proportional representation was considered twice here and unfortunately rejected both times. Not sure if NS has ever contemplated PR.