Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[Horus]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

That's not the point. What happened to the rationale that one of the "advantages" of the delay is that it would give RTG a chance to test the trains in the worst of weather? The recent storm was the best example of the heavy snowfall Ottawa can get in a short period, and that opportunity might not come around again this season (at least I'm hoping it doesn't )

Very good point. In fact, if I were in RTG, I'd be heavily publicizing the fact that I was testing trains during that heavy snowstorm (if, in fact, they were being tested). It would be a great reassurance that the system could handle those conditions, and provide some evidence to their claim that March 31 is still achievable.

This was an opportunity missed IMO

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by pattherat

This guy gets it.

Just look at the history of Joanne Chiannello’s articles overall. Almost always an angle of negativity and attack, no matter if the subject is LRT or anything else.

I am thankful for Joanne Chiannello's reports. She has been cutting through the BS that the politicians have been spinning in a way that the average Joe can understand.

Who else was making it perfectly clear that only 14 trains are ready to operate today? We get figures like 24 are ready, but they aren't really even if the deficiencies are minor. What is really important to know is that 2 trains are seriously deficient.

We now know that we need to wait for 2 replacement trains because of the seriousness of the issues with those 2 trains. It is also now perfectly clear that we cannot operate without 34 functional trains. There is no wiggle room. We clearly purchased the minimum number of trains that we could get away with. Was this really good idea? No doubt some careful budget cutting to keep within the $2.1B envelope.

Before, all we were getting is that the line would not open until it is safe. That doesn't tell us much, does it? We are dependent on the press to keep the politicians accountable.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I am thankful for Joanne Chiannello's reports. She has been cutting through the BS that the politicians have been spinning in a way that the average Joe can understand.

Who else was making it perfectly clear that only 14 trains are ready to operate today? We get figures like 24 are ready, but they aren't really even if the deficiencies are minor. What is really important to know is that 2 trains are seriously deficient.

Before, all we were getting is that the line would not open until it is safe. That doesn't tell us much, does it? We are dependent on the press to keep the politicians accountable.

This.

[McC]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

. It is also now perfectly clear that we cannot operate without 34 functional trains. There is no wiggle room. We clearly purchased the minimum number of trains that we could get away with. Was this really good idea? No doubt some careful budget cutting to keep within the $2.1B envelope.

I think this is more about meeting the conditions for accepting handover of the system, rather than minimum operating conditions. E.g., a full complement of trains need to be ready to test the system at full capacity, testing it at 90% capacity isn’t a complete test.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

For the Spirit being different from the Euro model it is based upon.... AFAIR it is a matter of the electrics (wiring, wiring harnesses, switches, controls, voltages), electronics (computers (not Thales), sensors, displays, voltages), and even some of the mechanicals (bogies, wheels, etc), being converted to North American standards - which have and has caused problems in other manufacturers' trains and LRVs in the past, and will undoubtedly continue to do so.

I know someone who used to work for Alstom and he said the Citadis family is more of description of the type of trains. Even in Europe, there are very significant differences in designs of Citadis trains.

He worked on the electrical side and all of the wiring needed to be converted from metric wiring to AWG. Similarly I can only assume the sheet metal needed to be converted from metric to Imperial gauges. This may sound trivial, but in my experience, minor changes in tolerances can cascade and result in a major issue (is there enough room for a slightly larger wiring harness, or will a slightly thicker panel fit for example). Couple that with different requirements for North American use (both safety and accessibility) and it was likely considered easier to design a new train from the ground up (using their experience and possibly reusing some components when possible).

The fact that they have 14 trains fully operational indicates to me that it isn't likely design issues but manufacturing issues. This can easily happen with any manufacturer, especially when using a new final assembly facility.

As for those "2 extra" LRVs (one 2-vehicle train ?), that's what beats the snot out of me on this numbers game. We Shall See !?!

Ya. I can't help but wonder if some sort of "accident" (or incident) happened that is being covered up. They likely either need significant disassembly to fix them or a significant number of parts need to be replaced to pass testing and sell them as new. The missing computers is likely just a convenient excuse (if you were missing 2 computers and had 2 trains that you weren't sure how you were going to fix, they would probably be assigned to each other).

[lrt's friend]

Ya. I can't help but wonder if some sort of "accident" (or incident) happened that is being covered up. They likely either need significant disassembly to fix them or a significant number of parts need to be replaced to pass testing and sell them as new. The missing computers is likely just a convenient excuse (if you were missing 2 computers and had 2 trains that you weren't sure how you were going to fix, they would probably be assigned to each other).

Covering up the real reason for bad news is common in order to gain public acceptance.

It is like in the NHL. The number of players who cannot play because of the flu. That is BS. They are no doubt sick but it is likely some typical viral infection (ie a bad cold). If that reason was given, we would see so many whining about sucking up and getting on the ice. I go to work with a cold. Why doesn't he? But pro athletes will not compete well at 75% and could be detrimental to the team. So they tell us an untruth to avoid some silly discussion about being wimps.

[acottawa]

I agree, there is a significant disconnect between the official explanation and the actions taken. You don’t abandon a vehicle worth hundreds of thousands and build new ones (or millions, not sure) because parts were delayed or missing.

[Truenorth00]

Happens with aircraft. Dunno if it happens with trains.

Despite some of the most tightly controlled processes, and well documented and tracked manufacturing, sometimes airplanes will come off and literally not fly straight. Individually, all the parts check out. Procedures and documents check out. But the test pilot will tell you that plane flies crooked. Or there's some other defect. Sometimes a correction can be found. Sometimes not.

When it happens after delivery (say after maintenance), the plane becomes a rob bird. She provides the spares for the rest of the fleet.

Could be the situation with these two trains.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Happens with aircraft. Dunno if it happens with trains.

Despite some of the most tightly controlled processes, and well documented and tracked manufacturing, sometimes airplanes will come off and literally not fly straight. Individually, all the parts check out. Procedures and documents check out. But the test pilot will tell you that plane flies crooked. Or there's some other defect. Sometimes a correction can be found. Sometimes not.

When it happens after delivery (say after maintenance), the plane becomes a rob bird. She provides the spares for the rest of the fleet.

Could be the situation with these two trains.

I believe it happens with cars as well, a small percentage are defective when assembled. Anyway the only one on the hook for the defective trains is Alstom itself

[J.OT13]

Confederation Line images from last week's update.

Rideau Station West Concourse


https://twitter.com/OttawaPolitico/status/1096030485296398336

Rideau Station Platform


https://twitter.com/ReNewCanada/status/1095410196237746178

Lyon Station Concourse


https://twitter.com/OttawaCritic/status/1095938812902076419

[OttawaSteve]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/snowfall-freezes-lrt-testing-1.5024683?cmp=rss

Snowfall freezes LRT testing
No tests on Confederation Line since last week's winter storm

Joanne Chianello · CBC News · Posted: Feb 20, 2019 4:00 AM ET

"We have not deployed the trains on the track since the end of the storm … Wednesday or Thursday," the city's general manager of transportation, John Manconi, confirmed Tuesday.

As well, CBC News has learned that one light rail vehicle got stuck between Hurdman and Lees stations for two days because of the snow, and had to be towed to the maintenance and storage facility.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by OttawaSteve

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/snowfall-freezes-lrt-testing-1.5024683?cmp=rss

Snowfall freezes LRT testing
No tests on Confederation Line since last week's winter storm

Joanne Chianello · CBC News · Posted: Feb 20, 2019 4:00 AM ET

I saw them plowing the track yesterday. This isn't super surprising, they weren't running trains nearly often enough to handle the storm. That being said, there will be sometimes the line shuts down, everybody else's does occasionally during the winter (NYC, Toronto, Vancouver ,etc). I really hope OC Transpo doesn't have it's rose colored glasses on and thinks it's not possible for the line to be shut down in a major storm. The only system that's invulnerable to weather is Montreal's since it's entirely underground.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

I saw them plowing the track yesterday. This isn't super surprising, they weren't running trains nearly often enough to handle the storm. That being said, there will be sometimes the line shuts down, everybody else's does occasionally during the winter (NYC, Toronto, Vancouver ,etc). I really hope OC Transpo doesn't have it's rose colored glasses on and thinks it's not possible for the line to be shut down in a major storm. The only system that's invulnerable to weather is Montreal's since it's entirely underground.

Given that the bulk of the snow came overnight, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't run any trains to keep the tracks clear. This is certainly a missed opportunity to find trouble spots during a major storm. I'm guessing the RTG didn't want to find those this late in the project though.

I suspect the big problem is the trenches. With steep walls on either side, there is only so much room to keep the snow that is being pushed off the tracks.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Given that the bulk of the snow came overnight, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't run any trains to keep the tracks clear. This is certainly a missed opportunity to find trouble spots during a major storm. I'm guessing the RTG didn't want to find those this late in the project though.

I suspect the big problem is the trenches. With steep walls on either side, there is only so much room to keep the snow that is being pushed off the tracks.

True, but there's more then there was when it was the transitway. The rail ROW is considerably narrower

[OCCheetos]

The CBC really likes stressing how these vehicles have "never been used before" or are "unproven in North American climates".
Now if you'll excuse me I have to catch a ride on a train designed and built for use in Germany that has run fine in our weather to get to Carleton.

Clearing snow took days

Sounds like what I was talking in an earlier post. It's like snow removal on city streets. First priority is keeping the track clear enough to run, then you can focus on doing a more thorough job of clearing the snow. ..just like on the Trillium Line?

The article also doesn't really mention when that one train got stuck. If it got stuck last Thursday then that's not so great... but otherwise they still had trains out last Thursday which was well after the snowfall? It almost sounds like something else happened that caused them to stop testing? but the article is trying really hard (maybe a bit too much) to frame it as a direct result of the snowfall.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The CBC really likes stressing how these vehicles have "never been used before" or are "unproven in North American climates".
Now if you'll excuse me I have to catch a ride on a train designed and built for use in Germany that has run fine in our weather to get to Carleton.


Sounds like what I was talking in an earlier post. It's like snow removal on city streets. First priority is keeping the track clear enough to run, then you can focus on doing a more thorough job of clearing the snow. ..just like on the Trillium Line?

The article also doesn't really mention when that one train got stuck. If it got stuck last Thursday then that's not so great... but otherwise they still had trains out last Thursday which was well after the snowfall? It almost sounds like something else happened that caused them to stop testing? but the article is trying really hard (maybe a bit too much) to frame it as a direct result of the snowfall.

So we have CBC reporting at one end of the spectrum, and at the other we have RTG perpetually telling us that everything is peachy, even when proven wrong time and time again. The truth is always somewhere in the middle, but we're left to parse it for ourselves

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.

Just out at St.Laurent station at about 10:00 and there were no trains visible, no trains on the schedule display, and lots of large snow chunks (10 - 30 cm plus in size, solid looking) in the rail RoW and on the rails - inside the station. Not exactly good looking.

? inquiring minds ?

[J.OT13]

Starting to think it could be another year+ before this thing opens.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Starting to think it could be another year+ before this thing opens.

That's what I am thinking. The system needs to function reliably in winter.

It is worrisome when trains get stuck in a snowstorm that is typical Ottawa winter weather. This is the not the worst of Ottawa weather, which is when we get ice.

Remember this video and look at the cars versus the streetcars. When ice gets into the rails, everything stops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSTgr4kqoPA

Montreal is embarking on even more ambitious above ground rail system with REM.

It has passed my mind on how this is going to work in our climate. The Ottawa-Montreal corridor and going east into the Maritimes is probably one of the most challenging climates for light rail in the world. Calgary and Edmonton may be colder but they don't get as much snow and ice. Hopefully, there is some relatively easy resolution.

[acottawa]

Would the result have been different if the trains were running on a regular basis? (Melting the snow a bit at a time before it can accumulate).