Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[acottawa]

This whole thing reminds me of an old school Mike Holmes episode. Somebody who didn’t know anything accepted the lowball bid, didn’t insist on a sensible payment schedule, didn’t properly supervise construction properly and wonders why it all went to ****.

[roger1818]

The way I see it, there will either be problems that need to be fixed or there won’t. If there are, we will have to fix them along the way, but we need this train running ASAP. Unless they ate safety related issues or prevent the line from running, we can’t afford to wait to fix them.

[acottawa]

I saw an electrical contractor at OttawaU station with a large spool of cable on his truck. While I have no idea what he was doing, that is the kind of thing that worries me, because either a) they are only doing wiring now on a station that has been mostly complete for quite some time or b) they need to replace electrical.

[Truenorth00]

Why are people saying the city cheapest out?

Unless I'm mistaken, RTG is responsible for picking out all those components and fittings. And they will bear the cost of maintaining them.

I can envision the the city lacked the experience to write a contract with sufficient teeth and maybe lacks quality lawyers for the scope involved.

A defence project that a friend of mine was on had to hire private litigation counsel once because the Department of Justice didn't have lawyers skilled enough to sue the contractor. They were only used to being on the receiving end. And he said that private team was so good, the difference in ability was apparent from his first interview with them. As an example of things that can go awry.

The question here is, what is wrong and how bad is the delay. Well find out on Tuesday I guess.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I can envision the the city lacked the experience to write a contract with sufficient teeth and maybe lacks quality lawyers for the scope involved.

I guarantee that the City hired external counsel to draft and negotiate the contract, so this wouldn’t be on the City lawyers. In any event, it’s far too early to judge whether there are gaps in the contract, as we would not have any idea what steps the City is taking to enforce the contract behind the scenes. This is a 30-year relationship, so there are lots of considerations that go into how a party approaches deficiencies.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I saw an electrical contractor at OttawaU station with a large spool of cable on his truck. While I have no idea what he was doing, that is the kind of thing that worries me, because either a) they are only doing wiring now on a station that has been mostly complete for quite some time or b) they need to replace electrical.

This is not something I’d be too quick to be worried about. You’re bound to have some deficiencies in a multi-billion dollar construction project. The question is one of magnitude and frequency of those deficiencies.

I also wouldn’t extrapolate from what you saw. It may not be the wiring. It could easily have been some other deficiency that resulted in the ripping out some wiring and then reinstalling. We’ve seen reports of concrete work that had to rectified.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

I guarantee that the City hired external counsel to draft and negotiate the contract, so this wouldn’t be on the City lawyers. In any event, it’s far too early to judge whether there are gaps in the contract, as we would not have any idea what steps the City is taking to enforce the contract behind the scenes. This is a 30-year relationship, so there are lots of considerations that go into how a party approaches deficiencies.

Whether it is city lawyers or outside lawyers, if they advised that the contract should have a 0.05% penalty for being almost a year behind schedule then the city got some bad advice.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is not something I’d be too quick to be worried about. You’re bound to have some deficiencies in a multi-billion dollar construction project. The question is one of magnitude and frequency of those deficiencies.

I also wouldn’t extrapolate from what you saw. It may not be the wiring. It could easily have been some other deficiency that resulted in the ripping out some wiring and then reinstalling. We’ve seen reports of concrete work that had to rectified.

I hope you’re right.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Whether it is city lawyers or outside lawyers, if they advised that the contract should have a 0.05% penalty for being almost a year behind schedule then the city got some bad advice.

The size of the penalty isn’t really a lawyer’s call. As I mentioned, this is a 30-year relationship, so they are looking at a much bigger picture when they structure the penalties and incentives.

[pattherat]

Originally Posted by phil235

The size of the penalty isn’t really a lawyer’s call. As I mentioned, this is a 30-year relationship, so they are looking at a much bigger picture when they structure the penalties and incentives.

...and also to consider: one can put in huge late penalties in a contract if one wants, but that doesn’t guarantee that respondents would be willing to sign it...

[lrt's friend]

A little blast from the past.

Bold headline form December 23, 2016

Rail Line stays on track despite sinkhole delay

True or False?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Ottawa’s in a valley, though. What does RTG expect?

Huh?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Huh?

It gets extremely cold and snowy in the winter.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

This city cheaps out on everything but pays more in the long term.

That'll be RTG. Especially the aforementioned elevator problem. RTG will be the ones paying to replace the elevators if they wear out early.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Is there any major project these days that isn't a raging distaster? Think NYC's second Ave subway, Edmonton's metro line, ION, etc, and all signs point to the Crosstown in Toronto being yet another fiasco.

Yeah. Megaprojects always come with bumps.

Originally Posted by kmcamp

I guess we were all being a bit nïeve about the confed line being any different

That, and I think we all overestimated the private sector's competency. All of us (myself included) had this mentality that because RTG has a 30 year maintenance obligation they'd have to build a quality product to save costs, as if they're some magical entity that always makes optimal choices, when in reality, private companies can be just as penny wise and pound foolish as governments.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Yeah. Megaprojects always come with bumps.



That, and I think we all overestimated the private sector's competency. All of us (myself included) had this mentality that because RTG has a 30 year maintenance obligation they'd have to build a quality product to save costs, as if they're some magical entity that always makes optimal choices, when in reality, private companies can be just as penny wise and pound foolish as governments.

Speaking as someone who has always worked in the private sector, they usually are, especially the very large ones.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by CityTech

That'll be RTG. Especially the aforementioned elevator problem. RTG will be the ones paying to replace the elevators if they wear out early.

If that is the case. We have no idea what the contract says (and we have been mislead so many times on the construction contract that I am not sure we should assume the maintenance contract will work in the city’s favour).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

It gets extremely cold and snowy in the winter.

I don’t think that is really valley related.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by CityTech

That'll be RTG. Especially the aforementioned elevator problem. RTG will be the ones paying to replace the elevators if they wear out early.

Based on the fixed price contact, RTG was to be responsible for any cost overruns and unforeseeable issues during construction, along with the measly $1 million penalties for every missed deadline (except the first one apparently).They don't seem willing to pay for those now. Who's to say they won't try to get some money out of the City when their sub-par equipment fails.

Originally Posted by CityTech

That, and I think we all overestimated the private sector's competency. All of us (myself included) had this mentality that because RTG has a 30 year maintenance obligation they'd have to build a quality product to save costs, as if they're some magical entity that always makes optimal choices, when in reality, private companies can be just as penny wise and pound foolish as governments.

Yes. The City placed way to much trust in the private sector. They figured the fixed price contract with 30 year maintenance would give them a iron clad deal. That's not looking good so far.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don’t think that is really valley related.

My thoughts as well. For example, Death Valley isn’t really known for its cold and snow.