Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Their reputation and that of council is on the line. The public will be hopping mad if there’s a third delay. But it will really look bad on the politicians if they can’t get straight answers from a contractor.

I’d argue that Manconi’s job is probably on the line too.

People will just sigh. The city has been promising LRT for more than 15 years. What's another year?

Every rail project so far has been botched to some degree, with the possible exception of the original O-Train when expectations were so low.

I will tell you that I wouldn't hold my breath about a schedule for Phase 2 either.

[eltodesukane]

z

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by eltodesukane

Even the original O-Train has been botched to some degree,
it should have had double tracking on its full length.

Maybe not the tunnel, but the rest should be double track.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Maybe not the tunnel, but the rest should be double track.

You create bottlenecks that way though. From what you have told me, it seems that you haven’t spent much time in cities where intra-city rail transit forms an important part of the transit network. Whenever you have time to travel, you should explore them.

Please don’t take offense at my words.

Sometimes I wonder: If the province were to take over responsibilities for municipal transit, would it still have been a half-baker work?

[AuxTown]

On a somewhat related note I have been talking to a couple guys that worked on the project lately. One guy on the elevators and the other on constructing the tunnel. Their opinion is that the city cheaped out on many aspects of this project. For example, the elevator guy says the elevators they installed are designed to be used in California or something. He expects there to be major problems related to temperature, snow, salt, etc.

And the laborers working on the tunnel were contracted out to the lowest bidders, resulting in poor workmanship and technical skills on this highly technical aspect of the project.

I am going to be really sad if this is delayed again. Our city deserves a win after some of the disasters in recent years (failing hockey franchise, Lebreton debacle, bus accidents, sink hole, TERRIBLE WEATHER!). Here's hoping....

[Dengler Avenue]

Sadly, severe cheapening out is one huge problem with the P3 model.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by eltodesukane

Even the original O-Train has been botched to some degree,
it should have had double tracking on its full length.

It was just a demonstration project. It was in 2006, that we botched it. We can debate about that project, but I think we can all agree that if it had been designed properly we wouldn't be waiting more than 15 years to build our first true LRT line. When you think about, this was irresponsible indecision by our politicians. A few of our councilors have been on council for that entire time. This is our city in poorly executed action.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Their reputation and that of council is on the line. The public will be hopping mad if there’s a third delay. But it will really look bad on the politicians if they can’t get straight answers from a contractor.

I’d argue that Manconi’s job is probably on the line too.

The election was a few months ago. By the time the next one comes around in 2022, Line 1 delays will be ancient history. Unless of course we're in the middle of a court battle with RTG at that time.

As for Manconi, after the miss-management of the rail file, the bus route changes for an opening that never was and two deadly bus crashes, it doesn't seem anything will get him fired.

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

On a somewhat related note I have been talking to a couple guys that worked on the project lately. One guy on the elevators and the other on constructing the tunnel. Their opinion is that the city cheaped out on many aspects of this project. For example, the elevator guy says the elevators they installed are designed to be used in California or something. He expects there to be major problems related to temperature, snow, salt, etc.

And the laborers working on the tunnel were contracted out to the lowest bidders, resulting in poor workmanship and technical skills on this highly technical aspect of the project.

I am going to be really sad if this is delayed again. Our city deserves a win after some of the disasters in recent years (failing hockey franchise, Lebreton debacle, bus accidents, sink hole, TERRIBLE WEATHER!). Here's hoping....

This is one project the City should now have cheeped out on. And they have, reducing the scope countless times between the initial project presented to the public under O'Brien and the contract awarded in 2012. Think reduction of escalators, platforms shortened from 180 meters to 150 to 120 and now 100.

That said, the elevators chosen for the project and the contractors were, as far as I understand, RTG's responsibility. It seems the City chose the lowest bid in RTG (most likely) and gave them ultimate power when it came to everything related to construction. Shut up and take my money.

It seems the 3P concept of the contractor morphing into maintenance and operations doesn't actually result in a better product as the City has claimed for the last 10 years.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It was just a demonstration project. It was in 2006, that we botched it. We can debate about that project, but I think we can all agree that if it had been designed properly we wouldn't be waiting more than 15 years to build our first true LRT time. When you think about, this was irresponsible indecision by our politicians. A few of our councilors have been on council for that entire time. This is our city in poorly executed action.

And then botched again in 2013-2015. Still waiting for that 8 minute frequency...

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

And then botched again in 2013-2015. Still waiting for that 8 minute frequency...

Just like double tracking, don't hold your breath. Just wait for the white elephant, the airport spur. We all know that this will be another poorly executed project. There would be wonderful irony if the botched South Keys pedestrian bridge collapsed on it, not that I want to see anybody hurt.

By the way, for a project that was supposed to be a welcoming gateway for visitors to Ottawa, the grounds around the pedestrian bridge are so badly maintained that it all looks like a big eyesore. But, Ottawa is a tim bits city. We can't invest in a bit of good landscaping and a floral display for our gateway from the airport. Our airport is award winning but our gateway to the city is gawd awful.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It seems the 3P concept of the contractor morphing into maintenance and operations doesn't actually result in a better product as the City has claimed for the last 10 years.

I am not sure the problem is the concept, it is a poorly written contract and a lack of proper supervision, which I think relates to the political pressure to keep the contract under 2.1 billion and a lack of capacity by city staff.. Lots of these contracts turn out fine.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

On a somewhat related note I have been talking to a couple guys that worked on the project lately. One guy on the elevators and the other on constructing the tunnel. Their opinion is that the city cheaped out on many aspects of this project. For example, the elevator guy says the elevators they installed are designed to be used in California or something. He expects there to be major problems related to temperature, snow, salt, etc.

And the laborers working on the tunnel were contracted out to the lowest bidders, resulting in poor workmanship and technical skills on this highly technical aspect of the project.

I am going to be really sad if this is delayed again. Our city deserves a win after some of the disasters in recent years (failing hockey franchise, Lebreton debacle, bus accidents, sink hole, TERRIBLE WEATHER!). Here's hoping....

This city cheaps out on everything but pays more in the long term.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I am not sure the problem is the concept, it is a poorly written contract and a lack of proper supervision, which I think relates to the political pressure to keep the contract under 2.1 billion and a lack of capacity by city staff.. Lots of these contracts turn out fine.

As I have said before, the politicians and city staff have absolutely no experience with railway construction and tunnelling in particular. The problem is not admitting there is a lack of experience but their unwillingness to hire people that have the experience. This has been seen time and time again with the Trillium line. Qualified people need be hired at the very beginning when the scope of the project is communicated with potential contractors preparing bids. The supervision of the projects needs to be more tightly controlled. Items such as water seepage in tunnels are very expensive and time consuming to fix and result in reduced availability of the system. As one example, we should not be replacing rail cars on the Trillium line for the 3rd time.

[GoTrans]

To give RTG some leeway, they probably set their time frame on the last iteration of the transfer date with a more mild winter in mind. Even though most construction now takes place year around, winter temperatures and snowfalls cause production to be drastically hindered and costs to rise because heat needs to be applied in many cases to complete the required work. I think RTG was overly optimistic on how fast they could finish the remaining work. I have not seen any shrouding covering work areas at the above ground stations on items that look like they need protection to be completed.

[Dengler Avenue]

Ottawa’s in a valley, though. What does RTG expect?

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Ottawa’s in a valley, though. What does RTG expect?

Don't forget that the trackage an catenary were built by the foreign partners in the consortium who probably do not have experience with Canadian winters. I worked on an oil sands project in Fort McMurray where a foreign engineering and general contractor had no real experience with real winters. It was a gong show because they did not want to take advice from Canadians about winter. Winter in most of Europe cannot compare with winter in most of Canada.

As far as the station construction, there is no excuse for Ellis Don not knowing how to plan and construct in winter.

[On Edge]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Just like double tracking, don't hold your breath. Just wait for the white elephant, the airport spur. We all know that this will be another poorly executed project. There would be wonderful irony if the botched South Keys pedestrian bridge collapsed on it, not that I want to see anybody hurt.

By the way, for a project that was supposed to be a welcoming gateway for visitors to Ottawa, the grounds around the pedestrian bridge are so badly maintained that it all looks like a big eyesore. But, Ottawa is a tim bits city. We can't invest in a bit of good landscaping and a floral display for our gateway from the airport. Our airport is award winning but our gateway to the city is gawd awful.

Absolutely. On arriving in our 'beautiful" capital city, visitors are treated to a potholed 2-lane cowpath (backed up with commuter traffic at key times of the day) with panoramic views of groundhog holes, weed-overgrown wastelands, and the backside of South keys strip mall.

As for the Confed Line, I guess some of our worst fears are coming true... huge delays and cost overrruns, ongoing maintenance issues requiring lengthy shutdowns, and the province reneging on funding for phase 2.

[lrt's friend]

This all makes me very nervous. If design and construction is second rate, we will see more frequent shut downs than we should. Given that by design, Ottawa is going to be very dependent on the Confederation Line, we will be in big trouble whenever there is a shutdown.

I have expressed this concern before about the lack of redundancy.

[Dengler Avenue]

Perhaps hope that Gatineau will build its LRT along Ottawa River too? (And yes, that said, we need to revitalize Prince of Wales Bridge.)

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This all makes me very nervous. If design and construction is second rate, we will see more frequent shut downs than we should. Given that by design, Ottawa is going to be very dependent on the Confederation Line, we will be in big trouble whenever there is a shutdown.

I have expressed this concern before about the lack of redundancy.

Is there any major project these days that isn't a raging distaster? Think NYC's second Ave subway, Edmonton's metro line, ION, etc, and all signs point to the Crosstown in Toronto being yet another fiasco.

I guess we were all being a bit nïeve about the confed line being any different