DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[CherryCreek]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Denver is not having that much trouble. Everybody who whines about housing prices in Denver is whining for the same reasons people in every City whine - they can't afford to live in exactly the areas they want to, with exactly the amenities they want to. The difference is, in Denver, the desirable areas of the moment are concentrated heavily in the City of Denver. So it becomes easy to conflate Denver - the CITY- and its unaffordability with unaffordability in metropolitan Denver, which simply is not a big issue.

I challenge everybody to open up your realtor app. Zoom out. No, farther out. Not just Baker and the Highlands, get the WHOLE METRO in your window. There. Now do a search for a 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom, single family house under $350,000. There are hundreds upon hundreds of them. Might you have to drive 20-30 minutes to downtown or the mountains? Yep.

Now do the same search in Austin. The number of available homes is almost the same.

I maintain the difference is that most of the housing stock in Texas is shit, so people are less picky. Less grumpy when they have to live in shit, because there isn't some paragon of walkable old urbanism they can't afford - it's mostly all the same sprawl-ey crap. It's the classic case of "I am happy making $75,000 if the guy next to me also makes $75,000. But I am miserable if the guy next to me is making $150,000." NOT EVERYBODY CAN LIVE IN WASH PARK. Embrace Aurora - or less square footage - go to Home Depot, buy yourself and awesome $300 grill for your backyard, and QUIT WHINING. And you'll feel just like you live in Texas.

Now if we want to talk about an affordability problem in the CITY, yes. Big problem. Because I think everybody should be able to live in the city if they want to. But we all know the answer to that - a whole lot more condo and apartment density. Which is tough for a lot of reasons. But the comparison to sunbelt cities are ludicrous - it is not the same problem (and by that measure, I'd argue we do not have a problem). We are not San Francisco, in that even driving an hour, there's nothing affordable. That's just not the case here.

Good points. On the rental front, everyone looks at the spiffy new, high amenity construction and points to rental prices of $2000 to $4,000 or more per month and talks about how outrageous rents are.

Looking at the greater metro on Zillow and limiting myself to $1200 for a TWO bedroom I find 175 results. For 1 bedrooms i find 181 results for $1,000 or below.

That may not be TEXAS cheap, but that's still pretty damn affordable.

[Stonemans_rowJ]

Ajax Lofts has laminated beams. Cool building though. Would be so much better if not wrapped by that giant apartment building.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ

Ajax Lofts has laminated beams. Cool building though. Would be so much better if not wrapped by that giant apartment building.

The piazza that was planned there would have been something. Even getting the second building (Tommy Boy) would have helped greatly in getting a better outcome in that portion of Prospect.

Instead the developer went bankrupt and there might have been a criminal indictment or two involved as well.

[InfillJunkie]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Denver is not having that much trouble. Everybody who whines about housing prices in Denver is whining for the same reasons people in every City whine - they can't afford to live in exactly the areas they want to, with exactly the amenities they want to. The difference is, in Denver, the desirable areas of the moment are concentrated heavily in the City of Denver. So it becomes easy to conflate Denver - the CITY- and its unaffordability with unaffordability in metropolitan Denver, which simply is not a big issue.

I challenge everybody to open up your realtor app. Zoom out. No, farther out. Not just Baker and the Highlands, get the WHOLE METRO in your window. There. Now do a search for a 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom, single family house under $350,000. There are hundreds upon hundreds of them. Might you have to drive 20-30 minutes to downtown or the mountains? Yep.

Now do the same search in Austin. The number of available homes is almost the same.

I maintain the difference is that most of the housing stock in Texas is shit, so people are less picky. Less grumpy when they have to live in shit, because there isn't some paragon of walkable old urbanism they can't afford - it's mostly all the same sprawl-ey crap. It's the classic case of "I am happy making $75,000 if the guy next to me also makes $75,000. But I am miserable if the guy next to me is making $150,000." NOT EVERYBODY CAN LIVE IN WASH PARK. Embrace Aurora - or less square footage - go to Home Depot, buy yourself and awesome $300 grill for your backyard, and QUIT WHINING. And you'll feel just like you live in Texas.

Now if we want to talk about an affordability problem in the CITY, yes. Big problem. Because I think everybody should be able to live in the city if they want to. But we all know the answer to that - a whole lot more condo and apartment density. Which is tough for a lot of reasons. But the comparison to sunbelt cities are ludicrous - it is not the same problem (and by that measure, I'd argue we do not have a problem). We are not San Francisco, in that even driving an hour, there's nothing affordable. That's just not the case here.

No one says it better than Bunt. I had considered moving to Plano before I made the move to Oregon and Bunt's right, it is mostly sprawl-ey shit. Yeah true, no income tax is great, but it's never a substitute for quality of life overall. Just my humble opinion really. I know a lot of people who live in Texas and they love it. I don't and never will. Just how it goes.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I can see the water and infrastructure portion placing serious downward pressure on development- particularly in greenfield development such as the tract housing going up in Aurora. But how exactly does this effect development within a cities boundaries on a smaller scale? If I want to building a 10-unit townhome development in Denver proper do I have to secure water rights or this just covered by the tap fee paid to Denver Water?
...

Denver Water is the oldest and most powerful in the metro, state, and in all of the west. They DO Have adequate water and have the resources to get more, but they are becoming stingy in supplying all of the second tier water providers who service certain areas via water supplied from Denver Water. So, YES, you can just pay Denver Water if they are your service provider, but realistically, they only directly serve about 20-25% of the metro area directly. In the suburbs and exurbs where utility providers are brand new or post 1960's, there are real supply issues.

Someone needs to build a pipeline from the Missouri River to California, right through Colorado - it floods every spring so we can 1) re-supply our reservoirs and 2) eliminate flooding for millions of downstream farmers! If we can do it for oil, we can do it for water. I'll support the wall if it doubles as an aqueduct and goes from Missouri to San Diego.

[Cirrus]

Listicle alert! According to this, here are the best hotels in Colorado:

Bold indicates Front Range rather than mountains.

1. The Little Nell, Aspen (19th nationally)
2. The Broadmoor, Colorado Springs (29th)
3. The Sebastian, Vail (55)
4. Four Seasons, Vail (100)
5. Four Seasons, Denver (122)
6. Sonnenalp, Vail (160)
7. St Regis, Aspen (179)
8. Ritz-Carlton Bachelor Gulch, Avon (180)
9. Part Hyatt Beaver Creek, Avon (181)
10. Hotel Jerome, Aspen (205)
11. Saint Julien, Boulder (210)
12. Brown Palace, Denver (216)
13. Lumiére, Telluride
14. Ritz-Carlton, Denver
15. Viceroy, Snowmass
16. The Crawford Union Station, Denver
17. The Arrabelle, Vail
18. Hotel Talisa, Vail
19. Hotel Teatro, Denver
20. ART, Denver
See more.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Listicle alert! According to this, here are the best hotels in Colorado:

Shows the impact and importance of Colorado's Western Slope when only 8 of the 20 are along the front range.

[BG918]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Shows the impact and importance of Colorado's Western Slope when only 8 of the 20 are along the front range.

Makes sense, the Colorado mountain towns are major tourist attractions, both domestic and international, in both summer and winter. Denver did surprisingly well on this list considering only the Hotel Teatro and venerable Brown Palace existed a decade ago.

[Cirrus]

Boulder's St Julien is also newish. I wouldn't have guessed it was comparable to the Brown Palace.

[ThePusherMan]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

What I'd first ask is, what type of bars are you looking to visit? Breweries, dive bars, beer halls, cocktail lounges, speakeasies, uber hipster joints? That might guide my advice, there are just so many places to drink. These days, I'd have to say Lower Highland and Rino have the highest concentration of interesting bars, for my taste anyway.

I had a background in craft cocktails before I opened an arcade bar and I love dive bars so basically I'm all over the map. I don't want to hijack the thread too much so thanks for all of the suggestions everyone! Can't wait to explore Denver!

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by ThePusherMan

I had a background in craft cocktails before I opened an arcade bar and I love dive bars so basically I'm all over the map. I don't want to hijack the thread too much so thanks for all of the suggestions everyone! Can't wait to explore Denver!

For some good divey bars, try Candlelight Tavern or Ogden Street South in Wash Park West, or maybe Don's on 6th Ave in Cap Hill...there's always My Brothers Bar downtown or Bull and Bush in Glendale...Bull and Bush has that sort of midwestern dive bar feel with xmas lights and such on the ceilings...

[Agent Orange]

Westfield sells RiNo block to apartment developer for $15M

As a nearby resident, I was hoping to see more height here, but 248 units is good. I have mixed feelings about the S*Park development, I don't like how the site plan ended up with empty grass lots on the corners along Arapahoe. Makes for a disappointingly broken-up street wall. I suppose they're going to have a "community garden" in the summer since that's their yuppie sales schtick.

Hopefully Avalon does a good job with whatever they purchased from Westfield.

[BG918]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

Westfield sells RiNo block to apartment developer for $15M

As a nearby resident, I was hoping to see more height here, but 248 units is good. I have mixed feelings about the S*Park development, I don't like how the site plan ended up with empty grass lots on the corners along Arapahoe. Makes for a disappointingly broken-up street wall. I suppose they're going to have a "community garden" in the summer since that's their yuppie sales schtick.

Hopefully Avalon does a good job with whatever they purchased from Westfield.

At one time this block was supposed to be the second phase of S-Park. Too bad it will be apartments and not more for-sale condos even if the density is twice as high as a second S-Park would’ve been (~100 units). The SE corner is where the community garden will go, the NE corner is slated for 2 or 3 townhomes not part of the original development.

[DenvertoLA]

Damn, sucks that Westfield sold it. If downtown got a Westfield mall, that would be a huuuuuuge bump up.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by BG918

Makes sense, the Colorado mountain towns are major tourist attractions, both domestic and international, in both summer and winter. Denver did surprisingly well on this list considering only the Hotel Teatro and venerable Brown Palace existed a decade ago.

You combine our two posts and find one heck of an economic impact at both the state and local levels.

Thinking back to 2004, I seem to recall Arizona tourism being nearly double what Colorado's was. Now I don't think there's much difference. Tourism is the best there is for getting a return. Visitors come for a stretch, drop money all over the place and when the leave they take their baggage with them. There's little economic burden attached to tourism.

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

Westfield sells RiNo block to apartment developer for $15M

Hopefully Avalon does a good job with whatever they purchased from Westfield.

AvalonBay is a REIT with some really nice properties. HQ's in Virginia and they've focused more on the east coast. Quick search shows they entered the Denver Market in Sept. 2017 via a purchase. Down the road, who knows, they have and are capable of building trophy projects.

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

Damn, sucks that Westfield sold it. If downtown got a Westfield mall, that would be a huuuuuuge bump up.

Not the same Westfield.

[CherryCreek]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

Not the same Westfield.

Speaking of Westfield, I found this on the web (Westfield Development) for a building at 4120 Brighton Blvd.

https://www.mortenson.com/denver/projects/4120-brighton-blvd

Love that building.

[Denvergotback]

Is there really even a chance for Two Tabor to get off the ground? It seems to have been dead silent about it for almost a year now...

[rds70]

A couple of new development proposals submitted to Denver in the past week:

1637 Blake St.:

Concept - 8-story infill Hotel in Lower Downtown Denver, with 185 guest rooms and approx. 8,600sf of 1st and 2nd floor amenity and retail space. All required parking is currently planned to be leased offsite per DZC requirements.

19th and Clay:

Concept - 1.65 acre site, 12-story, 280 unit apartment building, 318 parking spaces

[CherryCreek]

Originally Posted by rds70

A couple of new development proposals submitted to Denver in the past week:

1637 Blake St.:

Concept - 8-story infill Hotel in Lower Downtown Denver, with 185 guest rooms and approx. 8,600sf of 1st and 2nd floor amenity and retail space. All required parking is currently planned to be leased offsite per DZC requirements.


19th and Clay:

Concept - 1.65 acre site, 12-story, 280 unit apartment building, 318 parking spaces

1637 Blake - YES!! I've hated this parking lot for years.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/1637+B...ec9bc3f3!8m2!3d39.7513937!4d-104.9985953

19th and Clay?? If I'm reading my Google Maps, that's a parking lot at Mile-High Stadium.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.747793,-...WhEYXq37LImSTu_1osTKw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Speaking of parking lots, the worst remaining parking lot on 17th Street has to be this one.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7514912,...9ulGdjhHzSSerI4y7HAeA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


I believe a proposed hotel for this space fell through. UGH! Such a primo location, and such a hole in the LoDo fabric.