DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[ThePusherMan]

Originally Posted by CastleScott

^ Cool being a bar owner Lodo and the Ballpark hood should be tops, also Washington Park and downtown it's self.

Thanks a lot! Staying right downtown. Planning on Lodo for sure. I'll look into Washington Park!

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by ThePusherMan

Hey all, I'm visiting Denver for the first time in roughly 6 years and just thought I'd ask what all you Denver enthusiasts think I should check out when I'm in town. I'm a bar owner so I'll definitely be touring my fair share of food and beverage but let me know what you think I shouldn't miss. Thanks!

What I'd first ask is, what type of bars are you looking to visit? Breweries, dive bars, beer halls, cocktail lounges, speakeasies, uber hipster joints? That might guide my advice, there are just so many places to drink. These days, I'd have to say Lower Highland and Rino have the highest concentration of interesting bars, for my taste anyway.

[RyanD]

I agree, mostly. Also check out Dairy Block. LoDo is a good recommendation in my opinion especially for bars. Seven Grand is really cool, straight from DTLA and we all know my love for DTLA. Go up to Upper Ballpark (or Rino if you're into that) on Larimer around 25th. The bar in the Ramble is awesome, Finns is super cool, go to Denver Central Market while you're at it. Stem Ciders is cool along with C Squared (it's in an old warehouse and is near). The bar on the top floor of Source Hotel is legit. Come to my hood, Baker, and go to Adrift (totally underrated tiki bar), and Denver Distillery a block away. There are a lot of neat new spots in Baker along Broadway. Trve is a heavy metal brewery, also right up my alley.

Hell, go to Denver Beer's cerveceria on Platte Street. It's not busy and they have amazing Mexican beer. Want a great dive? Go to Horseshoe on 20th and Logan ish.

Denver has some amazing bars all over and I (obviously) love exploring them.

Edit: How could I forget? Go to Union Station. The historic Station itself has a cool bar on both levels!

[rds70]

A rendering of Hines CLT building proposed at 3500 Blake Street:

[TakeFive]

^^ Niiice

Originally Posted by rds70

A rendering of Hines CLT building proposed at 3500 Blake Street:

McCaffery, Hines and Ivanhoé Cambridge Announce T3 in Denver’s River North Art District
NOVEMBER 28, 2018

The property will be developed into a six-story, 250,000-square-foot T3 (Timber, Transit and Technology) office building, which will be one of the most environmentally friendly and sustainable developments in Denver.

The Partnership will work with Pickard Chilton Architects, the team behind notable office projects including Denver’s 1144 Fifteenth Street; 609 Main at Texas in Houston; and Chicago’s River Point. The building will feature a refined industrial, heavy-timber-structured design incorporating art to pay homage to the city’s vibrant and rapidly evolving art district.

Hines and T3 have been around the block before.

In 2016, Hines completed its prototype T3 project in Minneapolis. The firm currently has T3 developments underway in Atlanta and Chicago, and announcements are forthcoming for other markets.

[InfillJunkie]

Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ

Here's something about affordability that most people don't take into consideration: property taxes. What is it like .55% in Denver (except for all you Stapleton-ites- damn, it's pricey out there). Seriously, stupidly low property taxes in the city of Denver. my parents live in Texas, they pay over $6,000 annually on a $300,000 house where I pay $2,500 on a $500,000 house here.

Similarly, when looking at affordability, it's mostly about the payment. People buy a payment just like when you buy a car. the actual price is secondary. So for instance, let's say our wage/price ratio is 7. It may have been 4 15 years ago but the interest rates may have been 6%. Warren Buffet has said similar about equities. He made a comment that he doesn't think they overvalued when taking into account interest rates or something to that degree. Interest rates are everything in our debt/credit economy.

Exactly right. And like Bunt said earlier, there are affordable places in Denver...but not a lot of people want to move there. My partner and I are building in Reunion and we were able to get a house for under 350k new build. My commute into downtown Denver for work is 35 minutes. I may eventually take the train which will definitely add more time to my commute, but I would just enjoy ditching my car (although I'd probably drive to the station off Tower Rd. ). I looked at buying a house in Seattle and it was just unaffordable. Even if you lived outside the city, you're still looking at a ridiculous mortgage payment since their taxes aren't low with an hour or longer commute to Seattle or Bellevue. We lived in Mill Creek which is north of downtown Seattle and no matter what time of day my commute was over an hour. A bus trip would've taken an hour and twenty minutes. No great commuter rail up to Lynnwood just yet. Seattle is beautiful--that's about it.

I've been to Austin and it has the same "vibe" like Denver: young, millenial, hip, etc. What I saw of it did impress me but it would never be enough to make me move to Austin or anywhere in Texas. Plus, for those who commute by car, their traffic sucks balls. Just sayin'

I know we all complain about affordability and it's true that appreciation has skyrocketed in Denver over the past 10 years. I bought a home in Northeast Park Hill in 2008 for about 180k (and my property tax was $850 a year. In 2017 the taxes are now $1581). I made over a 100k on it when I sold it a few years later, now according to Zillow its Zestimate is $425k. If you want to be close to downtown, you will definitely pay a premium. But, if you're wanting to just be in the Denver metro and be a part of what makes Colorado great then there are still places left to buy--you just might have to drive farther. Sucks, but sad truth.

[DenverPoke]

Originally Posted by InfillJunkie

Exactly right. And like Bunt said earlier, there are affordable places in Denver...but not a lot of people want to move there. My partner and I are building in Reunion and we were able to get a house for under 350k new build. My commute into downtown Denver for work is 35 minutes. I may eventually take the train which will definitely add more time to my commute, but I would just enjoy ditching my car (although I'd probably drive to the station off Tower Rd. ). I looked at buying a house in Seattle and it was just unaffordable. Even if you lived outside the city, you're still looking at a ridiculous mortgage payment since their taxes aren't low with an hour or longer commute to Seattle or Bellevue. We lived in Mill Creek which is north of downtown Seattle and no matter what time of day my commute was over an hour. A bus trip would've taken an hour and twenty minutes. No great commuter rail up to Lynnwood just yet. Seattle is beautiful--that's about it.

I've been to Austin and it has the same "vibe" like Denver: young, millenial, hip, etc. What I saw of it did impress me but it would never be enough to make me move to Austin or anywhere in Texas. Plus, for those who commute by car, their traffic sucks balls. Just sayin'

I know we all complain about affordability and it's true that appreciation has skyrocketed in Denver over the past 10 years. I bought a home in Northeast Park Hill in 2008 for about 180k (and my property tax was $850 a year. In 2017 the taxes are now $1581). I made over a 100k on it when I sold it a few years later, now according to Zillow its Zestimate is $425k. If you want to be close to downtown, you will definitely pay a premium. But, if you're wanting to just be in the Denver metro and be a part of what makes Colorado great then there are still places left to buy--you just might have to drive farther. Sucks, but sad truth.

I did a new build in Reunion a couple of years ago but have since moved out of state. 35 minutes to downtown isn't likely if you work traditional 8-5 hours. Consider taking the 104x to Union Station if your schedule and office location allow it. As you are probably aware, taxes out there are ridiculous (for Denver metro anyway). Best of luck, it's not a bad little area.

[InfillJunkie]

Originally Posted by DenverPoke

I did a new build in Reunion a couple of years ago but have since moved out of state. 35 minutes to downtown isn't likely if you work traditional 8-5 hours. Consider taking the 104x to Union Station if your schedule and office location allow it. As you are probably aware, taxes out there are ridiculous (for Denver metro anyway). Best of luck, it's not a bad little area.

Yeah the taxes are definitely higher but they are comparable to Green Valley Ranch because of the metro districts.

I work 7-3 so the commute is definitely a lot easier than a regular 8-5.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

McCaffery, Hines and Ivanhoé Cambridge Announce T3 in Denver’s River North Art District
NOVEMBER 28, 2018

Hines and T3 have been around the block before.

While this won't be the first CLT building in Denver, Crescent Real Estate's Platte Fifteen has that distinction, it will be the tallest. Ajax Lofts was the first heavy timber frame building built in Denver back in the early 2000's, but if IIRC it used honest to God old-growth lumber and not CLT.

You'd probably be interested in the tidbit that this is Ivanhoe Cabridge's first Denver development, but they now have a significant Denver portfolio after acquiring Callahan Capital Partners with T2 being the crown jewel in terms of potential.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ

...my parents live in Texas, they pay over $6,000 annually on a $300,000 house where I pay $2,500 on a $500,000 house here...

While true, Texas property taxes are much higher, it's because Texas has NO state income tax. When you combine those low home values with the higher property tax rate but NO state income tax, it's a hell of a recipe for success and the reason so many people want to live in Texas! Despite being one of the largest states by population, they STILL post some of the highest percentage growth annual (both in population and GPD). That probably has a good bit to do with why their state grows so fast with a balance not really seen in any other state/market...

[CastleScott]

The property will be developed into a six-story, 250,000-square-foot T3 (Timber, Transit and Technology) office building, which will be one of the most environmentally friendly and sustainable developments in Denver.

The Partnership will work with Pickard Chilton Architects, the team behind notable office projects including Denver’s 1144 Fifteenth Street; 609 Main at Texas in Houston; and Chicago’s River Point. The building will feature a refined industrial, heavy-timber-structured design incorporating art to pay homage to the city’s vibrant and rapidly evolving art district.

Wow what a beautiful building-I hope they keep the crown element. Btw I wonder if McCaffery is Ed McCaffery who played wide receiver with the Denver Broncos back in the 90s-early 2000s? I counted 7 floors so there must be a mezzanine..

[Ich]

Originally Posted by laniroj

While true, Texas property taxes are much higher, it's because Texas has NO state income tax. When you combine those low home values with the higher property tax rate but NO state income tax, it's a hell of a recipe for success and the reason so many people want to live in Texas! Despite being one of the largest states by population, they STILL post some of the highest percentage growth annual (both in population and GPD). That probably has a good bit to do with why their state grows so fast with a balance not really seen in any other state/market...

I used to live in Seattle and I did enjoy not having to pay state income tax but having moved back to Denver, I feel like with Tabor, I get a lot of it refunded back to me. I just see it as forces savings. I can say tho, I would find it annoying that my purchasing power would be less because of property taxes. My parents having that issue in NY. I do wonder why Denver is having a hard time adding supply and keeping home prices lower while Texas isn’t. I know part of it is they are more inclined to sprawl outwards but even the burbs in Denver have pretty high prices.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by Ich

...I do wonder why Denver is having a hard time adding supply and keeping home prices lower while Texas isn’t. I know part of it is they are more inclined to sprawl outwards but even the burbs in Denver have pretty high prices...

Being a local developer, my direct observation is threefold as to why Denver can't keep up. In order of importance:

1) There is not enough residential zoned land of all types, including SFH and the process by which to change zoning has become extremely risky due to local politics - NIMBYism is just the tip of the iceberg IMHO. As such, you're left with relatively few land developers taking on rezoning efforts and a few old land owning families who actually want to try and entitle their own ground - it's a recipe for lots of unzoned land and a great growth inhibitor. There is an acute deficit of medium and high density residential zoning (medium being 10-20 units/acre and high being >20 units/acre).

2) Linked to #1 above- due to TABOR, local governments keep holding onto commercially zoned ground, even if it is not viable (ie decades vacant) or over-prescribed for their particular residential base. They hold onto commercial ground because the property tax discrepancy between residential and commercial is SO LARGE in Colorado and most municipalities would rather wait decades than give it up. Most municipalities statewide have a majority of their property held as SFH inventory, which is literally the only real estate asset class of any kind other than mobile homes that DOES NOT pay it's own way- ie property tax revenues don't cover long term cost of maintaining that property, it's services, infrastructure, government, etc.

3) We have serious water and infrastructure issues in Colorado and it's slowing growth. The ability for most water providers in the metro area to purchase water is nearing a critical point of no return. To add to that, even if municipalities or private developments of scale can afford to purchase paper water, the surface water (actual flows) are on their last leg of allocation unless substantial new storage capacity is added (the Chatfield Reservoir expansion is one of the most critical projects to sustain metro Denver's growth). Outside of the largest master planned communities, it is almost impossible to secure water for most development unless the water provider (cities, ditch companies, etc) have existing, adequate capacity - and many do not. The infrastructure challenges are simply a function of poor municipal management - look at Westminster - they put on a 12 month moratorium because they failed to foresee their sewer usage - they upgraded a giant wastewater facility to treat the water, but all the pipes leading to that facility are too small...oops!

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by Ich

I used to live in Seattle and I did enjoy not having to pay state income tax but having moved back to Denver, I feel like with Tabor, I get a lot of it refunded back to me. I just see it as forces savings. I can say tho, I would find it annoying that my purchasing power would be less because of property taxes. My parents having that issue in NY. I do wonder why Denver is having a hard time adding supply and keeping home prices lower while Texas isn’t. I know part of it is they are more inclined to sprawl outwards but even the burbs in Denver have pretty high prices.

I've wondered if the issue in Denver could be that the population grew too fast so construction of new homes couldn't keep up? Whereas metros like Atlanta, Dallas and Houston grew at a more even pace over the decades, allowing for home construction to keep up. Just a thought... I have no evidence.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Being a local developer, my direct observation is threefold as to why Denver can't keep up. In order of importance:

1) There is not enough residential zoned land of all types, including SFH and the process by which to change zoning has become extremely risky due to local politics - NIMBYism is just the tip of the iceberg IMHO. As such, you're left with relatively few land developers taking on rezoning efforts and a few old land owning families who actually want to try and entitle their own ground - it's a recipe for lots of unzoned land and a great growth inhibitor. There is an acute deficit of medium and high density residential zoning (medium being 10-20 units/acre and high being >20 units/acre).

2) Linked to #1 above- due to TABOR, local governments keep holding onto commercially zoned ground, even if it is not viable (ie decades vacant) or over-prescribed for their particular residential base. They hold onto commercial ground because the property tax discrepancy between residential and commercial is SO LARGE in Colorado and most municipalities would rather wait decades than give it up. Most municipalities statewide have a majority of their property held as SFH inventory, which is literally the only real estate asset class of any kind other than mobile homes that DOES NOT pay it's own way- ie property tax revenues don't cover long term cost of maintaining that property, it's services, infrastructure, government, etc.

3) We have serious water and infrastructure issues in Colorado and it's slowing growth. The ability for most water providers in the metro area to purchase water is nearing a critical point of no return. To add to that, even if municipalities or private developments of scale can afford to purchase paper water, the surface water (actual flows) are on their last leg of allocation unless substantial new storage capacity is added (the Chatfield Reservoir expansion is one of the most critical projects to sustain metro Denver's growth). Outside of the largest master planned communities, it is almost impossible to secure water for most development unless the water provider (cities, ditch companies, etc) have existing, adequate capacity - and many do not. The infrastructure challenges are simply a function of poor municipal management - look at Westminster - they put on a 12 month moratorium because they failed to foresee their sewer usage - they upgraded a giant wastewater facility to treat the water, but all the pipes leading to that facility are too small...oops!

I can see the water and infrastructure portion placing serious downward pressure on development- particularly in greenfield development such as the tract housing going up in Aurora. But how exactly does this effect development within a cities boundaries on a smaller scale? If I want to building a 10-unit townhome development in Denver proper do I have to secure water rights or this just covered by the tap fee paid to Denver Water?

Denver certainly doesn't have a lot of room left for large mixed-use neighborhoods. The largest open-space area that left where you could develop a new neighborhood is probably the space that's been reserved for commercial development in Stapleton. There's a hundred acres easily where you could get over a thousand units at the minimum if all that was developed was SFH, duplex, and townhomes.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Ich

I used to live in Seattle and I did enjoy not having to pay state income tax but having moved back to Denver, I feel like with Tabor, I get a lot of it refunded back to me. I just see it as forces savings. I can say tho, I would find it annoying that my purchasing power would be less because of property taxes. My parents having that issue in NY. I do wonder why Denver is having a hard time adding supply and keeping home prices lower while Texas isn’t. I know part of it is they are more inclined to sprawl outwards but even the burbs in Denver have pretty high prices.

Denver is not having that much trouble. Everybody who whines about housing prices in Denver is whining for the same reasons people in every City whine - they can't afford to live in exactly the areas they want to, with exactly the amenities they want to. The difference is, in Denver, the desirable areas of the moment are concentrated heavily in the City of Denver. So it becomes easy to conflate Denver - the CITY- and its unaffordability with unaffordability in metropolitan Denver, which simply is not a big issue.

I challenge everybody to open up your realtor app. Zoom out. No, farther out. Not just Baker and the Highlands, get the WHOLE METRO in your window. There. Now do a search for a 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom, single family house under $350,000. There are hundreds upon hundreds of them. Might you have to drive 20-30 minutes to downtown or the mountains? Yep.

Now do the same search in Austin. The number of available homes is almost the same.

I maintain the difference is that most of the housing stock in Texas is shit, so people are less picky. Less grumpy when they have to live in shit, because there isn't some paragon of walkable old urbanism they can't afford - it's mostly all the same sprawl-ey crap. It's the classic case of "I am happy making $75,000 if the guy next to me also makes $75,000. But I am miserable if the guy next to me is making $150,000." NOT EVERYBODY CAN LIVE IN WASH PARK. Embrace Aurora - or less square footage - go to Home Depot, buy yourself and awesome $300 grill for your backyard, and QUIT WHINING. And you'll feel just like you live in Texas.

Now if we want to talk about an affordability problem in the CITY, yes. Big problem. Because I think everybody should be able to live in the city if they want to. But we all know the answer to that - a whole lot more condo and apartment density. Which is tough for a lot of reasons. But the comparison to sunbelt cities are ludicrous - it is not the same problem (and by that measure, I'd argue we do not have a problem). We are not San Francisco, in that even driving an hour, there's nothing affordable. That's just not the case here.

[CherryCreek]

Originally Posted by laniroj

While true, Texas property taxes are much higher, it's because Texas has NO state income tax. When you combine those low home values with the higher property tax rate but NO state income tax, it's a hell of a recipe for success and the reason so many people want to live in Texas! Despite being one of the largest states by population, they STILL post some of the highest percentage growth annual (both in population and GPD). That probably has a good bit to do with why their state grows so fast with a balance not really seen in any other state/market...

Interestingly, although Texas is pretty solid with respect to its total tax burden (ranking 33rd highest tax burden), Colorado is actually better, coming in at 35th. The worst states? Few surprises:

1 New York
2 Hawaii
3 Maine
4 Vermont
5 Minnesota
6 Connecticut
7 Rhode Island
8 Illinois
9 New Jersey
10 California

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494/

[CherryCreek]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Denver is not having that much trouble. Everybody who whines about housing prices in Denver is whining for the same reasons people in every City whine - they can't afford to live in exactly the areas they want to, with exactly the amenities they want to. The difference is, in Denver, the desirable areas of the moment are concentrated heavily in the City of Denver. So it becomes easy to conflate Denver - the CITY- and its unaffordability with unaffordability in metropolitan Denver, which simply is not a big issue.

I challenge everybody to open up your realtor app. Zoom out. No, farther out. Not just Baker and the Highlands, get the WHOLE METRO in your window. There. Now do a search for a 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom, single family house under $350,000. There are hundreds upon hundreds of them. Might you have to drive 20-30 minutes to downtown or the mountains? Yep.

Now do the same search in Austin. The number of available homes is almost the same.

I maintain the difference is that most of the housing stock in Texas is shit, so people are less picky. Less grumpy when they have to live in shit, because there isn't some paragon of walkable old urbanism they can't afford - it's mostly all the same sprawl-ey crap. It's the classic case of "I am happy making $75,000 if the guy next to me also makes $75,000. But I am miserable if the guy next to me is making $150,000." NOT EVERYBODY CAN LIVE IN WASH PARK. Embrace Aurora - or less square footage - go to Home Depot, buy yourself and awesome $300 grill for your backyard, and QUIT WHINING. And you'll feel just like you live in Texas.

Now if we want to talk about an affordability problem in the CITY, yes. Big problem. Because I think everybody should be able to live in the city if they want to. But we all know the answer to that - a whole lot more condo and apartment density. Which is tough for a lot of reasons. But the comparison to sunbelt cities are ludicrous - it is not the same problem (and by that measure, I'd argue we do not have a problem). We are not San Francisco, in that even driving an hour, there's nothing affordable. That's just not the case here.

Good points. On the rental front, everyone looks at the spiffy new, high amenity construction and points to rental prices of $2000 to $4,000 or more per month and talks about how outrageous rents are.

Looking at the greater metro on Zillow and limiting myself to $1200 for a TWO bedroom I find 175 results. For 1 bedrooms i find 181 results for $1,000 or below.

That may not be TEXAS cheap, but that's still pretty damn affordable.

[Stonemans_rowJ]

Ajax Lofts has laminated beams. Cool building though. Would be so much better if not wrapped by that giant apartment building.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ

Ajax Lofts has laminated beams. Cool building though. Would be so much better if not wrapped by that giant apartment building.

The piazza that was planned there would have been something. Even getting the second building (Tommy Boy) would have helped greatly in getting a better outcome in that portion of Prospect.

Instead the developer went bankrupt and there might have been a criminal indictment or two involved as well.