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  #11021  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2018, 5:47 PM
613_YYT 613_YYT is offline
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Naming rights are sold all the time. The Air Canada Centre is now Scotia Bank Arena. The Sens now play in Canadian Tire Centre. Even the name Mile One was paid for by Danny Williams. His foundation trademarked it too. I can't find the original articles but this is from Wikipedia:

Though the centre's name is often assumed to be a generic name based solely on the building's location, Mile One Centre is in fact among the many North American sports venues that have raised funds by selling their naming rights. In the case of Mile One, brewing company Molson initially acquired the naming rights for 10 years (2001-2011), as well as other privileges such as being the venue's exclusive beer supplier, for $1.5 million.[5] Molson then resold the naming rights to Danny Williams, then-owner of Cable Atlantic (and later premier of Newfoundland and Labrador), for $600,000. Before the centre opened, however, Williams sold Cable Atlantic to Rogers Communications in order to pursue politics, but retained the naming rights personally. Ultimately Williams chose to name the centre based on the venue's geography.[6]

"Mile One" is a trademark owned by the Williams family's charitable foundation, not the city, meaning that the centre can only use the "Mile One" name so long as it has the family's permission to do so. This implies that if and when Williams's rights expire and are not renewed, the centre might be forced to find a new name, regardless of whether or not a new sponsor is found.[7]

I was hoping for DannyDome at the time...

I have mixed feeling about city funding and ownership of large stadiums. I think Mile One would probably never have been built by waiting for a private funder and without Mile One there would have likely been less sports, trade shows and other entertainment. The economists can figure out the economic (and enjoyment) value to see if it was worth it.

With that said, I agree is Mr. Mcfly. now that the area is built and established I think it should be sold off or leased out or whatever to end the $1.6M operating subsidy. This is the only city I'know of that owns a large stadium but no minor hockey rinks or track and field complex or competitive pool! That annual $1.6M would go a long way at providing more sport options for a population that desperately needs some health improvements.

Last edited by 613_YYT; Nov 23, 2018 at 12:56 PM. Reason: typo and grammar
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  #11022  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2018, 5:23 PM
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Marty_Mcfly Marty_Mcfly is offline
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Yeah, I understand that most stadiums/arenas get built with some municipal funding (in return for equity), but holding onto that equity ownership only works if the arena is turning a profit.
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  #11023  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 6:15 PM
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Horsell Horsell is offline
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There is an article at CBC.ca/nl ( https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/urban-spawl-development-fees-1.4946520 ) today regarding the City's recently announced plan to waive development permits for certain areas. Looking at the brief list there doesn't look like too many opportunities for any significant changes, but hopefully the devil is in the details. One that did jump out at me however was Bennet Ave, where recently I J Samson was torn down for a cookie cutter townhouse development. Hardly a significant densification.

Hopefully using the Grace Hospital land as a backdrop for the article might encourage some proposals for that property some day. Perhaps the Provincial Government can sell it to someone for a dollar...wink..wink. Personally, I would like to see some form of design competition for the area rather than have it developed (wishful thinking) willy nilly.
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  #11024  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2018, 4:22 PM
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Horsell Horsell is offline
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I thought this was interesting so I thought I would share:

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-...rebuild-it-exactly-like-it-was-1.4951402
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  #11025  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2018, 1:29 PM
IronMan IronMan is offline
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Did anyone hear that the deal for U-Haul to purchase the current Costco building fell through, and now Wal-Mart is going to purchase it to use as a warehouse for their stores? I heard this yesterday. Also head that they decided to retain the gas pumps in the east end. Not sure if there is any truth to this.
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  #11026  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2018, 11:04 AM
goodgrowth goodgrowth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Did anyone hear that the deal for U-Haul to purchase the current Costco building fell through, and now Wal-Mart is going to purchase it to use as a warehouse for their stores? I heard this yesterday. Also head that they decided to retain the gas pumps in the east end. Not sure if there is any truth to this.
I dunno sounds like BS to me..
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  #11027  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2018, 5:31 PM
Arrakis Arrakis is offline
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Either way, if they turn it into an industrial business rather than retail, I believe it will be the beginning of the end for Stavanger Drive as a viable retail area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Did anyone hear that the deal for U-Haul to purchase the current Costco building fell through, and now Wal-Mart is going to purchase it to use as a warehouse for their stores? I heard this yesterday. Also head that they decided to retain the gas pumps in the east end. Not sure if there is any truth to this.
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  #11028  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2019, 12:39 PM
statbass statbass is offline
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An interesting article echoing the sentiment of many on SSP. The downside of being a one trick pony. The article mentions how Halifax faced a similar situation a decade ago and how they turned things around. Hopefully we can do the same thing.

CBC.ca
Feb 4, 2019
Author: Terry Roberts

Quote:
Records show more than a quarter of high-end office space in the downtown core is now vacant as big employers migrate to suburban commercial areas off Kenmount Road and near St. John's International Airport, leaving some large office towers practically empty.

And the exodus is far from over, putting some downtown advocates on edge.

"I wouldn't rule out that some businesses will close," said Jonathan Galgay, executive director of the George Street Association, which represents 21 downtown bars and restaurants.

"There's certainly been some chatter in the broader downtown business community that vacancy rates are having a negative impact on operations."

Six years ago, with $100-plus oil puffing up the economy, practically every square foot of Class A space along Water and Duckworth streets was occupied, with oil and other professional companies paying premium leasing costs.

....
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/downtown-downturn-1.4996955
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  #11029  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2019, 2:54 PM
Larla77 Larla77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Did anyone hear that the deal for U-Haul to purchase the current Costco building fell through, and now Wal-Mart is going to purchase it to use as a warehouse for their stores? I heard this yesterday. Also head that they decided to retain the gas pumps in the east end. Not sure if there is any truth to this.
Not sure about the first part but Costco isn't maintaining the gas pumps. We asked when we were in the store.
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  #11030  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2019, 4:18 PM
goodgrowth goodgrowth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by statbass View Post
An interesting article echoing the sentiment of many on SSP. The downside of being a one trick pony. The article mentions how Halifax faced a similar situation a decade ago and how they turned things around. Hopefully we can do the same thing.

CBC.ca
Feb 4, 2019
Author: Terry Roberts



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/downtown-downturn-1.4996955
Saying it's due to oil is a very lazy and tired argument imo....these corporate offices are moving not disappearing.

St. John's has 2 options really:

1. You remove virtually all restrictions on development in the downtown area (extremely unlikely).

2. Accept the reality that St. John's downtown is not like most downtown cores in North America that it can't really expand outward or upward for a variety of reasons. Therefore designate it a special district(entertainment/tourism/restaurants/boutique retail) and plan accordingly.
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  #11031  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2019, 8:11 PM
wmemeadusjr wmemeadusjr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodgrowth View Post
Saying it's due to oil is a very lazy and tired argument imo....these corporate offices are moving not disappearing.

St. John's has 2 options really:

1. You remove virtually all restrictions on development in the downtown area (extremely unlikely).

2. Accept the reality that St. John's downtown is not like most downtown cores in North America that it can't really expand outward or upward for a variety of reasons. Therefore designate it a special district(entertainment/tourism/restaurants/boutique retail) and plan accordingly.
You hit the nail on the head with everything you said.
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  #11032  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2019, 8:14 PM
wmemeadusjr wmemeadusjr is offline
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I think it's time to re-think downtown office space and consider converting some of it into hotel rooms, apartments and condos. The older Fortis building would be a great candidate for such a conversion as it's long overdue for a reno/retrofit.
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  #11033  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2019, 10:07 PM
Larla77 Larla77 is offline
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They need to decide what they want downtown to be. Is it office space with some shops, etc. Or is it a mix of entertainment district and housing. I think the second is more sustainable. As much as I like small local niche businesses there isn't much down there now that makes it livable really (grocery store and affordable shopping and dining).
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  #11034  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 2:31 PM
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jeddy1989 jeddy1989 is offline
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Here's some articles about the state of Downtown and the heated sidewalk idea.

The city needs a clear vision for revitalizing downtown and they NEED to make it attractive. I have been a HUGE supporter of heated sidewalks and even roads (like they do in the snowiest cities in Japan). Anyways, it's time to do something.


Quote:
A decade later, new development plan for northeast Avalon remains a work in progress
Work now expected to be finished in coming months, minister says

An on-again, off-again plan to manage future development and transportation needs on the northeast Avalon is back on the province's radar, more than 10 years after work on it began.

"I'd like to get it done within the next few months," Municipal Affairs Minister Graham Letto told CBC News.

"As minister, I've committed to that, and I've committed to the 15 municipalities that we would get back together and get this completed. So I want to see it done sooner rather than later."

Briefing notes prepared for Letto after he took over the municipal affairs portfolio in November shed some light on the tangled history — and potential future — of the Northeast Avalon Regional Plan, or NEAR Plan for short.

CBC News obtained those records through access-to-information.

Advice that was provided to Letto is blacked out.

But in an interview, he made it clear he wants to move forward.

"We've gone out to the 15 municipalities that are involved in the plan and written them and asked them to to get engaged again and to get this plan back in action," Letto said...

(Much more information in link)
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundl...-graham-letto-northeast-avalon-1.4999542



Quote:
Downtown Exodus: Office Vacancies Rising In St. John’s

The numbers are in, and office space in the capital city is just that: empty space right across the board.

A market survey conducted by Turner Drake and Partners has found that office vacancies in the capital city have increased from just under 16 per cent in 2017 to just over 17 per cent in 2018.

The hardest hit area is the capital city’s downtown, with the vacancy rate increasing from 22 per cent in 2017 to over 26 per cent in 2018.

With ExxonMobil planning to move out of the downtown and over to Hebron Way next year, those numbers will increase.

By comparison, Mount Pearl and Paradise have seen a significant decrease in vacancies, dropping from 16 per cent in 2017 to just over 10 per cent last year combined.

St. John’s Deputy Mayor Sheilagh O’leary says the city is looking at ways to move forward in the downtown. She says they just had a meeting with the downtown St. John’s Board to create an action plan.
http://vocm.com/news/downtown-exodus-office-vacancies-rising-in-st-johns/



Quote:
Downtown St. John's won’t get heated sidewalks any time soon


Hickman ‘very disappointed’ in delay, ponders using waste heat from Mile One

Coun. Sandy Hickman started a debate among St. John’s residents last week when he suggested the city consider heating downtown sidewalks.

The debate seemed to spew over to council for a moment during the Monday evening meeting.


Deputy city manager for planning, Jason Sinyard, told council that staff are too far along with the designs of Phase 2 of Water Street sewer upgrades to consider integrating heated sidewalks as Hickman suggested last week.

Sinyard said staff could conduct research and make recommendations to council about the feasibility of heated sidewalks before Phase 3 of construction instead — therefore delaying the idea until 2020.

Coun. Dave Lane suggested the idea be referred to the committee of the whole so councillors could further discuss it before city staff delve into research.

Hickman then appeared to break meeting etiquette as he stood to respond to Lane while Lane was already standing and speaking.

For a brief moment, both councillors were standing while other councillors looked on apprehensively.

“We’re friends,” smiled Lane, and Mayor Danny Breen asked Hickman to remain seated while Lane spoke.

Lane said it sounds as if city staff are already intensively exploring the idea suggested by Hickman.

“It seems like this could get a bit big, so let’s think it through first,” he said.

As quickly as the idea heated up, it is now back to a simmer — at least temporarily.

Breen said that because the idea will mean quite bit of work for city staff, it will be referred to the committee of the whole to be discussed at the Wednesday meeting before staff go any further with the work.

Hickman told The Telegram he is happy council is showing interest in the idea.

Still, he’s “very disappointed” the idea couldn’t be implemented during Phase 2 this spring as he had originally hoped.

“It’s an opportunity lost, for sure,” he said.

Using Mile One heat

Since last week, Hickman said, he has been contacted by seven companies that specialize in heated sidewalks.

They’ve pitched everything from heating sewer pipes to laying heated mats on sidewalks during winter months. Other ideas were more electrical-based.

Hickman said he’s also spoken with a manager at Mile One Centre.

“There’s waste heat in Mile One from the plant,” said Hickman.

Hickman said at one point the waste heat was considered for heating the Convention Centre, but it was thought to be too expensive.

“But now I think it’s too expensive that we didn’t do it because we would have saved tens of thousands of dollars a year on heating the Convention Centre. So, we lost that opportunity, but another opportunity may present itself, possibly heating city hall, or possibly heating sidewalks around the Convention Centre.”

Hickman said he’s simply suggesting the city try new ideas and new technologies in “every line of work the city handles,” whether it’s in garbage collection methods or in revitalizing downtown through improvements such as heated sidewalks.
https://www.thetelegram.com/news/local/d...t-heated-sidewalks-any-time-soon-281676/

AMEN to that last point from Hickman!
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  #11035  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 2:57 PM
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Horsell Horsell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larla77 View Post
They need to decide what they want downtown to be. Is it office space with some shops, etc. Or is it a mix of entertainment district and housing. I think the second is more sustainable. As much as I like small local niche businesses there isn't much down there now that makes it livable really (grocery store and affordable shopping and dining).
It's time to wade into the "future of Downtown" debate.
I agree with your point that the City (and by extension citizens) need to figure out what Downtown should be. Where's the plan?
You can't blame the businesses that have left for greener (??) pastures on the outskirts where parking is free, access is (may) be better. The only issue I have with where they are going is that they are scattering east and west and contributing to sprawl in some way. Once again, no vision from the City. Perhaps the City should have picked one ares, either Kelsey Dr/ Kenmount Rd OR Hebron Way as a new business district with higher building limits to foster a more concentrated cluster of office buildings rather that have every Tom, Dick and Harry developer apply for and get variances to put three and four story buildings wherever they can find a cheap piece of land.

With this lack of vision, the foreseeable future has been set and trying to change anything at this point is really going to require some "out of the box" thinking.

I (and others) have said on this forum before that the city should have designated Water St West as a high rise (maybe as high as 15 or 20 stories) to encourage developments with an economy of scale.

Hopefully we can save Downtown before too many more storefronts get boarded up.
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  #11036  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2019, 4:15 PM
jjavman jjavman is offline
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Originally Posted by Horsell View Post

I (and others) have said on this forum before that the city should have designated Water St West as a high rise (maybe as high as 15 or 20 stories) to encourage developments with an economy of scale.

Hopefully we can save Downtown before too many more storefronts get boarded up.
Totally agree!
A lack of vision is an understatement. How did this city get to present age without a comprehensive downtown vision?
There are certainly lots of restaurants and bars for attraction, plus a sports centre.

What is lacking is a clear policy by the city, so that building developments may proceed quickly, without the hindrance of self interest groups.

Also lacking is a clear parking policy. We have a hybrid system now and the ever decreasing meter spaces are difficult to grab with 2 way traffic on Water, and Duckworth Street (You see a space on the opposite side, but it's gone before you can turn around). The city keeps touting parking garages, but nobody wants to avail of a garage when they want to run into a shop for 10 minutes!

I would love to see a one way circle using Water and Duckworth because they are narrow and have little shops which need parking support.
Leave Harbour Drive 2 way, as it's wide and mostly shopless.

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  #11037  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2019, 2:52 AM
613_YYT 613_YYT is offline
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Originally Posted by jjavman View Post
Totally agree!
A lack of vision is an understatement. How did this city get to present age without a comprehensive downtown vision?
There are certainly lots of restaurants and bars for attraction, plus a sports centre.

What is lacking is a clear policy by the city, so that building developments may proceed quickly, without the hindrance of self interest groups.

Also lacking is a clear parking policy. We have a hybrid system now and the ever decreasing meter spaces are difficult to grab with 2 way traffic on Water, and Duckworth Street (You see a space on the opposite side, but it's gone before you can turn around). The city keeps touting parking garages, but nobody wants to avail of a garage when they want to run into a shop for 10 minutes!

I would love to see a one way circle using Water and Duckworth because they are narrow and have little shops which need parking support.
Leave Harbour Drive 2 way, as it's wide and mostly shopless.

I also think the problem with DT, and the city as a whole, is parking- There is too much of it. This is a result of poor regional planning, single use zoning and minimum parking requirements.

Next time you walk around DT (lolz, who walks in St. John's?) or use Maps/Street View count the number of off street parking lots, garages and alleys. To name a few:
-Portabellos
-Courtyard by Marriot
-Cochrane St between Duckworth and Water
-Duckworth at King St
-Duckworth at Holloway St
-Prescott at Duckworth
-Prescott at Gower/Bluedrop building
-Garage at 330 Duckworth,
-3 lots near Duckworth and Bates Hill
-Water St at Soloman's Lane
-Water Street at the Courthouse
-Alleys behind 280 Duckworth, Basho, BMO at McBrides Hill.
-All of Harbour Drive
These make up a lot of the downtown area and are usually not full.

Parking lots are not nice places for people and kill the streetscape. They have little economic value, like a business, or add to the area, like a park or a house. They cost a lot to maintain and drive up rent. They also kill walkability by spreading buildings further apart and letting cars cross the sidewalk at dips and ramps even though sidewalks are suppose to be a pedestrians safe space. They are also ugly and uninspiring.

Now think about how many spaces are for people. There is almost no public space outside of the War Memorial/Harbourside Park area. Not surprisingly, this is usually the place you can find people hanging out. There is nothing near the main shopping and commercial area. There are maybe a 6 benches and almost no green space throughout the rest of DT. The sidewalks are even too narrow for two couples to pass each other comfortably. It's like we don't want people to stay DT.

We have a sprawling region were we prioritize car use and funnel people in and out of areas a quickly as possible. That's great for the big box store next to a highway. But that doesn't make a very nice city. A cool, hip and vibrant city has areas where people want to hangout and live. This promotes people spending money or workers sharing ideas. Innovation happens and attracts businesses. There is room for public events and that will attract more locals and tourists and more businesses. We need to let people transform areas.

Downtown St. John's isn't particularly nice and is built for the cars to get you out of there at 5 pm so it's no surprise that the area can't compete with offices in the suburbs that also have little to offer other than just office space.

So what should be done?
-Decrease parking requirements. This will help reduce sprawl and car culture across the city. Land use will be more efficient especially downtown. Most booming cities have already done this.
-Rezone surface lots to mixed use to allow infill development. Allow storefronts with residential and cheaper Class B or C office space above to promote small businesses.
-City buys back certain lots and turn into a plaza or park. They also rent space for kiosks or food trucks and host events. The lot a Soloman's Lane on Water St would ideal for this. The movie nights at this site is very popular and shows there is demand for more public space.
-Increase onstreet parking fees to push all full day parkers to the underused garages or other forms of transportation. Leave onstreet spots for people who need it for short visits. Extra revenue should be put back into making the area better like transit, greenery or public wifi.
-Add a levy for buildings that want to keep offstreet lots. Use that money in the area.
-Add benches and planters. Plant trees and install fountains or other public monuments. Give people places to mingle. Then you have people who will probably buy an extra coffee or visit one more store. Or maybe bring a guitar and entertain people. Plants also make us feel good and has been proven to have economic benefits.
-Redesign Duckworth and Water streets to prioritize active transportation and public transit so there will be less cars in the area and less demand for parking. Make the streets so people think they can cross where ever they want when a store catches their eye. There are enough car roads in the area, you can spend an extra few minutes and go around or slowly through the area.
-City stops allowing more Class A office space to be built when the existing stock can't be filled. This also counts for west end of downtown. More highrises aren't the answer. They look nicel in photos but vertical sprawl can also happen. Great cities are often made of low rise-high density areas. ie Copenhagen, Paris, Amsterdam, San Francisco.
-Converting some office space into housing stock is the great idea if the area was made more appealing for residents.

"A good city is like a good party - people stay longer than really necessary, because they are enjoying themselves." - Jan Gehl

TL: DR
Downtown St. John's has too much parking and needs to be made nicer for people to attract residents and businesses.
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  #11038  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2019, 2:27 PM
Larla77 Larla77 is offline
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I would highly suggest that anyone interested in the history of downtown development particularly in the 70s, 80s and early 90s to check out this paper: http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk1/tape4/PQDD_0018/MQ54967.pdf. I originally found it on this site and its a fascinating read. Talks about how all these parking lots downtown came to be, companies buying up real estate in the early 70s when the oil speculation started, Atlantic Place, etc. Of particular note is the construction of the Duffett Building (where TD Bank is today). Originally that building was supposed to have 2 additional floors for parking but the council of the day had the size of the building decreased to what it is now due to public pressure over the size of the building (it was the first of the larger buildings downtown). The building was approved on the condition that parking be provided at ancillary sites. So the owners bought up buildings close by and tore them down for parking. It was a short sighted decision.

I think any look at downtown development and where we see the future going has to start by looking at how we got where we are today. Much of the downtown fascades have already been lost (the Scotia Building was originally going to keep the Ayres fascade). An area should be designated for heritage/entertainment and another area for a business district. Lots of other cities have those distinctions. Water Street should be one way from Prescott Street to the Convention Centre. Make it somewhere people (other than downtown hipsters) actually want to be.
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  #11039  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2019, 6:46 PM
wmemeadusjr wmemeadusjr is offline
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St. John's did studies in recent years about density and vowed to become less sprawled going forward. I'm scratching my head here, but didn't the opposite happen? Any proposal for downtown was usually met with pure outrage by council and a vocal minority....while at the same time, excavators levelled more and more woods to make more sprawling low rise office parks like Hebron Way and Kelsey Drive.
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  #11040  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2019, 7:44 PM
Arrakis Arrakis is offline
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Totally agree. The City of St. John's is its own worst enemy.

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Originally Posted by wmemeadusjr View Post
St. John's did studies in recent years about density and vowed to become less sprawled going forward. I'm scratching my head here, but didn't the opposite happen? Any proposal for downtown was usually met with pure outrage by council and a vocal minority....while at the same time, excavators levelled more and more woods to make more sprawling low rise office parks like Hebron Way and Kelsey Drive.
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