DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[BG918]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Eh, we'll give Austin their tech props; Denver is a different kind of wonderful place. Maybe if I were younger and urban-obsessed Austin would have more appeal. But Denver has the right balance of sports and culture that Austin can't match.

I prefer Colorado's four seasons and I've spent too much time camping and exploring the Western Slope to prefer Texas over Colorado. If you don't take the time to get out of the city, you're missing what's awesome that makes people love Colorado. Simply put: I love the Rockies.

I get the appeal of a warmer place like Austin during winter but the summer weather there is absolutely brutal and lasts from May to October, sometimes longer. I'll take the Rockies any day over anything Texas offers as an escape from the city.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Definitely a smart move.

I also read more about Endeavor's The Domain. Facebook has spoken for all of a 17-story building under construction joining many other tech companies in what is now being referred to as Austin's second downtown. Facebook also leased two-thirds of the recently completed 29-story Third + Shoal project.

Eh, we'll give Austin their tech props; Denver is a different kind of wonderful place. Maybe if I were younger and urban-obsessed Austin would have more appeal. But Denver has the right balance of sports and culture that Austin can't match.

I prefer Colorado's four seasons and I've spent too much time camping and exploring the Western Slope to prefer Texas over Colorado. If you don't take the time to get out of the city, you're missing what's awesome that makes people love Colorado. Simply put: I love the Rockies.

Urban-obsessed? That’s a very weird thing to say, have you even been to Austin? There is nothing about that city that scratches an urban-obsessed itch. There’s a lot to like there, for sure, but that’s not it.

Unless you define urban to mean some of these newer Whole Foods anchored quasi-mall-feeling faux cities. But the best parts of Austin do not feel any different from [pick a newly developed area of basically any growing U.S. city] - the difference is, there’s no older urban fabric those areas are supplementing the same way they do in say, a Seattle. I enjoy Austin, would probably live there, but it is a nice city *for Texas*. And on these things, it is all relative. You don’t move there because you’re urban-obsessed. You don’t live in Texas because you’re urban-obsessed.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by twister244

Austin has a lot going for it, but I feel like Denver is planning/managing their growth better than Austin is. I was there a year ago for a conference. The observations I made were that it's not that much cheaper than Denver, and whatever gap there is seems to be closing. With the kind of tech growth they have right now, I suspect Austin will soon be just as expensive as here. However, the airport is a fraction the size of DIA. Their mass transit is also significantly less than ours.

With this growth will come some serious growing pains for them before too long......

Interestingly, I caught a piece about 'where to invest in 2019' and both Denver and Austin are still top ten cities. Oddly both were dinged for infrastructure and Denver for it's affordability.

The predictable problem with Denver is that the I-25 corridor was always doomed to be an issue as that's where the historical focus of growth has been. Cities like Austin often 'sprawl' in different directions and it appears that in addition to downtown Austin, density is being added to the north, east and south of downtown. Still that dispersal can only accomplish so much.

Denver is great at planning. They plan, they plan some more and then they redo the plans. Execution is another matter; it's been good in some respects but is lagging in other respects.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Interestingly, I caught a piece about 'where to invest in 2019' and both Denver and Austin are still top ten cities. Oddly both were dinged for infrastructure and Denver for it's affordability.

The predictable problem with Denver is that the I-25 corridor was always doomed to be an issue as that's where the historical focus of growth has been. Cities like Austin often 'sprawl' in different directions and it appears that in addition to downtown Austin, density is being added to the north, east and south of downtown. Still that dispersal can only accomplish so much.

Denver is great at planning. They plan, they plan some more and then they redo the plans. Execution is another matter; it's been good in some respects but is lagging in other respects.

When you say Denver, do you mean Denver, or Denver metro? I don’t think affordability is a concern if you compare apples to apples. Plenty of cheap places around Denver - they’re just not the five areas people want to live. Not sure what the comparable is in Austin. But it strikes me that people are more flexible about where they live in Austin and other sun belt cities - probably because there’s effectively nowhere to live that is “walkable.” If you’re already driving, that gives more options. The parts of Denver that are affordable and deemed acceptable to young tech people are all older areas where one is aiming not to drive everywhere. It’s apples and oranges. Unclear to me why those people being surveyed would be okay living in suburban Austin but not Arvada. But that seems to be the case.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Unless you define urban to mean some of these newer Whole Foods anchored quasi-mall-feeling faux cities. But the best parts of Austin do not feel any different from [pick a newly developed area of basically any growing U.S. city] - the difference is, there’s no older urban fabric those areas are supplementing the same way they do in say, a Seattle. I enjoy Austin, would probably live there, but it is a nice city *for Texas*. And on these things, it is all relative. You don’t move there because you’re urban-obsessed. You don’t live in Texas because you’re urban-obsessed.

I'm always delighted when I can rev up your keyboard.

I agree with your perspective. The 'older urban fabric' is a good point to make.

Partly, I was taking more of a contemporary millennial view. For example The Domain includes both what you could criticize but also is a 21st century take on mixed-used (more) walkable area that tech companies like. Downtown Austin was apparently enough of a blank slate that a whole new urban city is rising. There's a whole lot of verticality going on but whether it can come close to Denver's infill is a different question. But for many, 'urban' doesn't have to just refer to downtown.

[DenverPoke]

Austin is a nice city and is growing rapidly, but it isn’t in the same tier as Denver and probably won’t be for another 20 years. Very little about Austin is urban but I would love for Denver to have some of the modern architecture going on there. A lot of impressive projects in Austin.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

When you say Denver, do you mean Denver, or Denver metro? I don’t think affordability is a concern if you compare apples to apples. Plenty of cheap places around Denver - they’re just not the five areas people want to live. Not sure what the comparable is in Austin. But it strikes me that people are more flexible about where they live in Austin and other sun belt cities - probably because there’s effectively nowhere to live that is “walkable.” If you’re already driving, that gives more options. The parts of Denver that are affordable and deemed acceptable to young tech people are all older areas where one is aiming not to drive everywhere. It’s apples and oranges. Unclear to me why those people being surveyed would be okay living in suburban Austin but not Arvada. But that seems to be the case.

When you say you who are you talking about.

Best I can recall it was a point that was just left hanging out there and now that you mention it I'm not sure if it referred to cost of living or cost of doing business so I'm not sure the reasoning of whoever mentioned that.

I did read this about the time I also read about the continuing exodus from especially NoCal where basic companies like McKesson, for example are less tethered to a California address than are tech companies.

Obviously, affordability like beauty depends on where one is coming from.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by DenverPoke

Austin is a nice city and is growing rapidly, but it isn’t in the same tier as Denver and probably won’t be for another 20 years. Very little about Austin is urban but I would love for Denver to have some of the modern architecture going on there. A lot of impressive projects in Austin.

I agree with this; again it goes to one's definition and perspective.

I was giving Austin their tech props; having Apple, Google and Facebook all make big commitments is impressive along with all the other tech going on.

The fact that Austin has grown up over such a (relatively) short period of time is its own advantage and your point about architecture is apt. Is Denver still more of a 'real' city? Of course.

[Stonemans_rowJ]

Here's something about affordability that most people don't take into consideration: property taxes. What is it like .55% in Denver (except for all you Stapleton-ites- damn, it's pricey out there). Seriously, stupidly low property taxes in the city of Denver. my parents live in Texas, they pay over $6,000 annually on a $300,000 house where I pay $2,500 on a $500,000 house here.

Similarly, when looking at affordability, it's mostly about the payment. People buy a payment just like when you buy a car. the actual price is secondary. So for instance, let's say our wage/price ratio is 7. It may have been 4 15 years ago but the interest rates may have been 6%. Warren Buffet has said similar about equities. He made a comment that he doesn't think they overvalued when taking into account interest rates or something to that degree. Interest rates are everything in our debt/credit economy.

[ThePusherMan]

Hey all, I'm visiting Denver for the first time in roughly 6 years and just thought I'd ask what all you Denver enthusiasts think I should check out when I'm in town. I'm a bar owner so I'll definitely be touring my fair share of food and beverage but let me know what you think I shouldn't miss. Thanks!

[CastleScott]

^ Cool being a bar owner Lodo and the Ballpark hood should be tops, also Washington Park and downtown it's self.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ

Here's something about affordability that most people don't take into consideration: property taxes. What is it like .55% in Denver (except for all you Stapleton-ites- damn, it's pricey out there). Seriously, stupidly low property taxes in the city of Denver. my parents live in Texas, they pay over $6,000 annually on a $300,000 house where I pay $2,500 on a $500,000 house here.

Similarly, when looking at affordability, it's mostly about the payment. People buy a payment just like when you buy a car. the actual price is secondary. So for instance, let's say our wage/price ratio is 7. It may have been 4 15 years ago but the interest rates may have been 6%. Warren Buffet has said similar about equities. He made a comment that he doesn't think they overvalued when taking into account interest rates or something to that degree. Interest rates are everything in our debt/credit economy.

Yep.... I was going to mention that about Austin as well. When you account for taxes, the gap in COL is probably not that large between the two cities. It's one of those things where we all think our COL here is insane for owning a house.... when in reality, it's still pretty nice compared to the coastal states, or other places like Texas where you can get a huge house for a lower "sale price", but you will end up paying more in taxes. Hell, look at Chicago where they have some of the highest property taxes in the nation.... no thanks. Plus, real estate in Chicago hasn't really moved much since the recession, where ours continues to grow every year. If you are a homeowner, Denver is a great place to own. Solid year-over-year growth, plus more of your monthly payment is going towards equity as opposed to taxes.

[jbssfelix]

Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ

Here's something about affordability that most people don't take into consideration: property taxes. What is it like .55% in Denver (except for all you Stapleton-ites- damn, it's pricey out there). Seriously, stupidly low property taxes in the city of Denver. my parents live in Texas, they pay over $6,000 annually on a $300,000 house where I pay $2,500 on a $500,000 house here.

Similarly, when looking at affordability, it's mostly about the payment. People buy a payment just like when you buy a car. the actual price is secondary. So for instance, let's say our wage/price ratio is 7. It may have been 4 15 years ago but the interest rates may have been 6%. Warren Buffet has said similar about equities. He made a comment that he doesn't think they overvalued when taking into account interest rates or something to that degree. Interest rates are everything in our debt/credit economy.

This. This so much. Our purchasing power on a house skyrocketed moving from Austin to Denver, simply due to property taxes. We were able to buy about $125,000+ more house for only about $250 more per month....and we moved to Stapleton, which everyone here thinks is taxed to death. In reality, it's still less than half the rate we were paying in Austin.

I'll also add that property taxes don't move in relation to personal wealth (duh), so monthly payments often outpace income gains for most folks. I'll totally take the income tax here in CO and cheap prop taxes over the TX method of 0 income tax and crazy prop taxes, simply because income taxes only increase as personal income increases.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

These X Denver projects are starting to take over the city. If this and Kenect Denver can break ground, that will start some serious infill momentum in Arapahoe Square.https://businessden.com/2019/02/04/new-y...m_term=0_e8b1506f0c-bbd2e3b532-148090113

[Robert.hampton]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

These X Denver projects are starting to take over the city. If this and Kenect Denver can break ground, that will start some serious infill momentum in Arapahoe Square.https://businessden.com/2019/02/04/new-y...m_term=0_e8b1506f0c-bbd2e3b532-148090113

Crazy a lot is going for that much in a crummy part of Arapahoe Square but I guess the zoning really is helping dictate that value.

[Curtis Park]

Originally Posted by ThePusherMan

Hey all, I'm visiting Denver for the first time in roughly 6 years and just thought I'd ask what all you Denver enthusiasts think I should check out when I'm in town. I'm a bar owner so I'll definitely be touring my fair share of food and beverage but let me know what you think I shouldn't miss. Thanks!

I would say ask us again in roughly six years. A lot will change by the time you get here. But I admire you ability to plan ahead!

[SirLucasTheGreat]

The Washington Post did an article about the changing Denver skyline but indicated that 650 17th is "planned" despite that project being dead for over a year. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/...hanging-skylines/?utm_term=.3f69ed525e9a

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

Crazy a lot is going for that much in a crummy part of Arapahoe Square but I guess the zoning really is helping dictate that value.

Perhaps you missed the intrigue behind the curtain. According to the BusinessDen piece.

In December, however, a staffer with architecture firm Studio PBA submitted a project concept to the city for the 2120, 2126 and 2130 Arapahoe St. parcels, proposing a 22-story project described as “X Denver 3.”

So either they're doing a JV or they still have to buy the parcels with the building. Btw, the lot was bought in 2017 for $1.25 million; resold for $3.1 million.

[rds70]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

The Washington Post did an article about the changing Denver skyline but indicated that 650 17th is "planned" despite that project being dead for over a year. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/...hanging-skylines/?utm_term=.3f69ed525e9a

An interesting quote from the article, however:

Plans for a 1,000-foot skyscraper at 17th and California streets, which would dwarf the next-tallest building, were presented last year. But there has been a delay involving the purchase of the property. For now the project, a mix of luxury condominiums, a hotel, restaurants and shops, is on hold.

Michael Santora, the principal partner of Crown Architecture and Consulting, which is helping manage the project, said the plans went through a preliminary zoning review last year and is “still a go.” He traveled to Denver to see the site and was amazed by the amount of construction and renovation taking place across the city.

[TakeFive]

I think I found the source for some of the confusion.

This was the 40th year for the well-regarded Price Waterhouse - Urban Land Institute's "Emerging Trends in Real Estate 2019" report. Long and involved others will pick it up and summarize it. The Colorado Real Estate Journal offered this among other points.

Denver, according to Emerging Trends, shares many of the same traits as other cities in the Mountain Region, including Salt Lake City, Phoenix, Las Vegas and Boise, Idaho.

“The quality of life offered in the Mountain Region should continue to be attractive to millennials looking to start families,” according to the report. The report also noted that the 2019 population growth rate is projected to be “well above the national average” in the Mountain Region, including Denver.

Zeroing in:

The report went on to say that net migration is “particularly strong” in Denver, Phoenix and Las Vegas.

However, Denver is one of the few markets in the Mountain Region where housing is not affordable, putting Denver at a competitive disadvantage.

Everyplace west of the Mississippi and NOT a coastal city is doing well but I'm not sure how much they compete with each other. For every move or expansion each company will base their decision on what's important to them. Since all three of these cities are now doing well there's obviously enough business to go around.

Footnote: Props to CREJ for featuring Ryan's Wynkoop Plaza photo.