Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0 - Page 458

acottawa · #**9141** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 3:21 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

If any of the future developments are like the current buildings already in the area then probably not. Its stilll a 50/50 chance that it would be.

Most of those complexes have convenience store type retail, which is all the LRT will have.

Unless there is significant demand from pathway users, it seems to make little sense to inconvenience transferring passengers on the off chance some future development decades in the future won’t have a convenience store.

zzptichka · #**9142** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 3:41 PM**

Well hopefully the don't have to light the tracks on fire like they do in Chicago

Kitchissippi · #**9143** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 3:45 PM**

I read that Amtrak is cancelling most of its trains in and out of Chicago because of the extreme cold brought by the polar vortex.

roger1818 · #**9144** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 3:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Well hopefully the don't have to light the tracks on fire like they do in Chicago

This is actually common practice around the world for deicing switches (I read that Switzerland uses flamethrowers). You basically want to boil off the water so that the switches can move freely. There aren't many switches on the line, but there are some (the diamonds and in the yard). It is possible that they have installed electric ice melters at the switches, but I don't know.

J.OT13 · #**9145** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 4:50 PM**

They don't seem to show the location of retail outlets on the Ready4Rail website. Hurdman really should be within the fare-paid zone. Ridiculous that they've placed it outside.

Catenary · #**9146** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 5:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by roger1818

This is actually common practice around the world for deicing switches (I read that Switzerland uses flamethrowers). You basically want to boil off the water so that the switches can move freely. There aren't many switches on the line, but there are some (the diamonds and in the yard). It is possible that they have installed electric ice melters at the switches, but I don't know.

The entire Trillium line has gas fired forced air heated switches. I can only imagine that the Confederation line is equipped with the same.

J.OT13 · #**9147** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 5:36 PM**

My bet's on electric heating. Operation needs to be 100% emission free.

acottawa · #**9148** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 5:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

My bet's on electric heating. Operation needs to be 100% emission free.

Why?

J.OT13 · #**9149** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 5:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by acottawa

Why?

No reason. That's just my thinking. One line is fuel operated, the other is electric. Totally different technologies operation wise, so why would the switch heaters be the same?

acottawa · #**9150** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 6:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

No reason. That's just my thinking. One line is fuel operated, the other is electric. Totally different technologies operation wise, so why would the switch heaters be the same?

The gas heaters are probably much cheaper to operate and if the function is the same then operating two separate technologies with two sets of spare parts, technician training, etc., makes little sense.

J.OT13 · #**9151** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 6:32 PM**

The City wouldn't have chosen the technology for heaters. That was up to RTG, the building and maintenance contractor. They wouldn't have taken into consideration what was used on the Trillium Line.

roger1818 · #**9152** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 6:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The City wouldn't have chosen the technology for heaters. That was up to RTG, the building and maintenance contractor. They wouldn't have taken into consideration what was used on the Trillium Line.

That is true. The RTG will be responsible for maintenance on the Confederation line but not on the Trillium line. For that reason they will have gone with what is expected to have the lowest life-cycle cost for them and emissions wouldn't have come into play unless it was a contractual requirement.

J.OT13 · #**9153** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 6:49 PM**

You're right that RTG likely doesn't care about emissions. I would imagine however that the upfront cost of installation for an electrical system would be cheaper than natural gas. They are already bringing the electrical wiring to the tracks for various operations. I'm not sure they would want to incur the extra cost of connecting the switches to natural gas lines (assuming that's how it works).

GoTrans · #**9154** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 6:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

No reason. That's just my thinking. One line is fuel operated, the other is electric. Totally different technologies operation wise, so why would the switch heaters be the same?

Most switch heaters for mainline railways are propane. The difference in technology required to run the trains has nothing to do with the chosen technology for switch heaters. Propane has the advantage of being able to supply instantaneous heat as a slower warm up period for electrical heaters and is a cheaper energy source than electricity. In the city they may use natural gas instead of propane and then they don't have to go around refuelling propane tanks in the winter months.

If any heater are required in the tunnel then they will probably electric due to exhaust fumes from propane.

White Pine · #**9155** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 6:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by roger1818

Agreed. We aren't the only city in the world with LRT trains that gets lots of snow and ice.

Interesting, I would have though that Skytrain's LIMs would do better in slippery conditions. Maybe it is an issue with the U shaped guideway and there not being enough room to push the snow aside.

As far as I know, Vancouver's problem seems to be the falling snow triggering the track intrusion detection system. I believe they've made the system better on the newer parts of the line, but I'm not sure.

CityTech · #**9156** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 7:23 PM**

Electric would probably have a lower installation cost; as J.OT13 pointed out electric wiring is already everywhere in the stations and along the tracks, but natural gas pipelines aren't necessarily on site already. For stations like Hurdman which aren't near any development there's a good chance the nearest gas pipe would actually be rather distant, making the installation and connection cost pretty high. Then in the tunnels (downtown & St. Laurent) you'd want to avoid anything with emissions for ventilation requirements.

I'd imagine they'd have gone with electric simply to avoid all of these issues.

J.OT13 · #**9157** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 9:02 PM**

Stephen Blais posted a video of a train traveling between Tunney's and Bayview. Looks like it's going full speed.

https://twitter.com/StephenBlais/status/1090685714633678848

roger1818 · #**9158** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 9:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Pine

As far as I know, Vancouver's problem seems to be the falling snow triggering the track intrusion detection system. I believe they've made the system better on the newer parts of the line, but I'm not sure.

That is a good reason to have a driver to start. A driver can visually confirm that the track is clear and override the false track intrusion alarm. Once we are confident that there are no false alarms, then we can talk about removing the drivers.

roger1818 · #**9159** Posted **Jan 30, 2019, 9:23 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CityTech

Electric would probably have a lower installation cost; as J.OT13 pointed out electric wiring is already everywhere in the stations and along the tracks, but natural gas pipelines aren't necessarily on site already. For stations like Hurdman which aren't near any development there's a good chance the nearest gas pipe would actually be rather distant, making the installation and connection cost pretty high. Then in the tunnels (downtown & St. Laurent) you'd want to avoid anything with emissions for ventilation requirements.

I'd imagine they'd have gone with electric simply to avoid all of these issues.

They could pipe in Natural gas, or they could have a large propane tank nearby that they fill periodically. You can't just look at installation cost, you also have to look at the 30 year life-cycle cost. I am not sure how those compare.

As for in the tunnel, they might not even need to heat the switches in it, though they may have heaters to be safe. The tunnel will be warmer and it is sheltered so it won't get nearly as much ice build up. As for fumes, there are very few switches, and when combined with lower deicing needs, the fumes would be minimal and should be easily handled by the TVS.

PHrenetic · #**9160** Posted **Jan 31, 2019, 3:52 AM**

Good Day.

Agreed, the tunnel should be well warm enough to keep the one set of switches inside clear with little help.
That is the one diamond between Lyon and Parliament, by both GeoOttawa and the last time-lapse end-to-end video.
All other switches require some kind of heaters, and such was visible in one of the early FEDCO updates' photos from February last year, with snow having been melted down to leave a dark patch in the RoW in the middle distance of the photo.

On an update of testing note, I was at the St.Laurent station at 10:10 Wednesday when a westbound single LRV train came in, stopped, opened doors for a five steamboat count, closed doors, and departed. And, the next train signage seemed active, thereupon stating that the next direction Blair platform 1 train was due in 4 minutes. I was not able to stay to verify that. A trio of whitehats (Aecom or Aecon, I could not make the label out) was videoing it.

EnJoy!