Calgary Construction XXVI

[Bad Grizzly]

These are definitely the typical definitions of what inner city is. The definitions sound like they are describing a ghetto, but in many cases the two go hand in hand.

Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_city
Quote:
The term "inner city" has been used as a euphemism for lower-income residential districts in the city center and nearby areas.
Dictionary - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/inner-city
Quote:
an older part of a city, densely populated and usually deteriorating, inhabited mainly by poor, often minority, groups.
Collins English Dictionary
Quote:
the parts of a city in or near its centre, esp when they are associated with poverty, unemployment, substandard housing, etc
New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, 3rd Edition
Quote:
A general term for impoverished areas of large cities. The inner city is characterized by minimal educational opportunities, high unemployment and crime rates, broken families, and inadequate housing. ( See ghettos.)
Dictionary - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ghettos
Quote:
a section of a city, especially a thickly populated slum area, inhabited predominantly by members of an ethnic or other minority group, often as a result of social or economic restrictions, pressures, or hardships.

[Tobyoby]

No offense, but you guys are being ridiculous. Suburbia, by now you'd think you would know better than to post something stupid like that. You know that post is bullshit, those definitions have nothing to do with 'inner city' definitions of Calgary.

Everyone knows when people talk about inner city in Calgary, they are talking about downtown/Beltline/Kensington/Mission/Inglewood/Bridgeland and maybe a few other nearby neighborhoods. Are those neighborhoods described as 'an older part of a city, densely populated and usually deteriorating, inhabited mainly by poor, often minority, groups' or

'the parts of a city in or near its centre, esp when they are associated with poverty, unemployment, substandard housing, etc' or

'A general term for impoverished areas of large cities. The inner city is characterized by minimal educational opportunities, high unemployment and crime rates, broken families, and inadequate housing'

Do those neighborhoods really fit those definitions? No they don't.

Originally Posted by suburbia

I suspect you're referring to some official City of Calgary map of inner city, but it got me thinking, what exactly is "inner city" and if there is more formal definition.

Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_city


Dictionary - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/inner-city


Collins English Dictionary


New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, 3rd Edition


Dictionary - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ghettos


Based on all of the above, I think Calgary's actual inner city is much smaller than what many consider. As an example, Crescent Height or Upper Mount Royal are neither slum'ish or high density. In fact, most of the SFH in what till now we've been calling inner city are 1,000sf or less bungalows on 6,000 sf lots. That's not inner city, that's inner sprawl.

So we have the Beltline, which for certain should be included in the "inner city" based on virtually all of the actual definitions, and only a few small areas beyond the core and Beltline. Then we have a band of what we've now coined as inner sprawl. The absolute lowest density parts of the entire city. And then the outer city. If you look at US cities, they don't think of things as suburbs till you're past our Stoney trail, and of course then you have commuter communities way out beyond that.

Originally Posted by Bad Grizzly

These are definitely the typical definitions of what inner city is. The definitions sound like they are describing a ghetto, but in many cases the two go hand in hand.

Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_city
Quote:
The term "inner city" has been used as a euphemism for lower-income residential districts in the city center and nearby areas.
Dictionary - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/inner-city
Quote:
an older part of a city, densely populated and usually deteriorating, inhabited mainly by poor, often minority, groups.
Collins English Dictionary
Quote:
the parts of a city in or near its centre, esp when they are associated with poverty, unemployment, substandard housing, etc
New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, 3rd Edition
Quote:
A general term for impoverished areas of large cities. The inner city is characterized by minimal educational opportunities, high unemployment and crime rates, broken families, and inadequate housing. ( See ghettos.)
Dictionary - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ghettos
Quote:
a section of a city, especially a thickly populated slum area, inhabited predominantly by members of an ethnic or other minority group, often as a result of social or economic restrictions, pressures, or hardships.

[jc_yyc_ca]

Technically Western Spaghetti is correct as there are no defined boundaries for inner city Calgary. I asked my wife what realtors consider inner city in Calgary and she said many refer to Highland Park as being inner city, but depending on the context just as WS had said. If the realtor's talking to a client in Saddleridge or Tuscany, who is looking for an inner city property, they would quite possibly show them properties from Highland Park and possibly Highwood also. If the client is in Highwood already, then a neighborhood like Sunnyside or Beltline, etc.. would be inner city.

The Calgary real estate board doesn't consider Highland Park inner city, but that doesn't mean people don't refer to it as inner city. Many people refer to the Beltline as being downtown, though technically it's not in the borders of what the city calls downtown.

The most accurate description of inner city is Tobyoby's, and the most out to lunch is the ones posted by Suburbia.

Originally Posted by speedog

Just so you know, Highwood still isn't considered inner city.

Originally Posted by Tobyoby

No offense, but you guys are being ridiculous. Suburbia, by now you'd think you would know better than to post something stupid like that. You know that post is bullshit, those definitions have nothing to do with 'inner city' definitions of Calgary.

Everyone knows when people talk about inner city in Calgary, they are talking about downtown/Beltline/Kensington/Mission/Inglewood/Bridgeland and maybe a few other nearby neighborhoods. Are those neighborhoods described as 'an older part of a city, densely populated and usually deteriorating, inhabited mainly by poor, often minority, groups' or

'the parts of a city in or near its centre, esp when they are associated with poverty, unemployment, substandard housing, etc' or

'A general term for impoverished areas of large cities. The inner city is characterized by minimal educational opportunities, high unemployment and crime rates, broken families, and inadequate housing'

Do those neighborhoods really fit those definitions? No they don't.

Originally Posted by suburbia

I suspect you're referring to some official City of Calgary map of inner city, but it got me thinking, what exactly is "inner city" and if there is more formal definition.

Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_city


Dictionary - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/inner-city


Collins English Dictionary


New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, 3rd Edition


Dictionary - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ghettos


Based on all of the above, I think Calgary's actual inner city is much smaller than what many consider. As an example, Crescent Height or Upper Mount Royal are neither slum'ish or high density. In fact, most of the SFH in what till now we've been calling inner city are 1,000sf or less bungalows on 6,000 sf lots. That's not inner city, that's inner sprawl.

So we have the Beltline, which for certain should be included in the "inner city" based on virtually all of the actual definitions, and only a few small areas beyond the core and Beltline. Then we have a band of what we've now coined as inner sprawl. The absolute lowest density parts of the entire city. And then the outer city. If you look at US cities, they don't think of things as suburbs till you're past our Stoney trail, and of course then you have commuter communities way out beyond that.

Originally Posted by Western Spaghetti

And just so you know it depends on who you talk to and the context. There is no official map outlying the inner city boundaries, so depending on the context, it still could be.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Western Spaghetti

Unfortunately those formal definitions were probably defined 100 years ago, and don't really apply anymore. Sunnyside or Crescent Heights would easily be described inner city and not inner sprawl - a term used by nobody.

According to Merriam-Webster the first known use of "inner city" was in 1958.

[Suburgatory]

Originally Posted by Western Spaghetti

Unfortunately those formal definitions were probably defined 100 years ago, and don't really apply anymore. Sunnyside or Crescent Heights would easily be described inner city and not inner sprawl - a term used by nobody.

Ya, that's just suburbia cherry picking words to passively put down the inner city. He's not really that obtuse I don't think.

[Suburgatory]

Originally Posted by jc_yyc_ca

Technically Western Spaghetti is correct as there are no defined boundaries for inner city Calgary. I asked my wife what realtors consider inner city in Calgary and she said many refer to Highland Park as being inner city, but depending on the context just as WS had said. If the realtor's talking to a client in Saddleridge or Tuscany, who is looking for an inner city property, they would quite possibly show them properties from Highland Park and possibly Highwood also. If the client is in Highwood already, then a neighborhood like Sunnyside or Beltline, etc.. would be inner city.

The Calgary real estate board doesn't consider Highland Park inner city, but that doesn't mean people don't refer to it as inner city. Many people refer to the Beltline as being downtown, though technically it's not in the borders of what the city calls downtown.

The most accurate description of inner city is Tobyoby's, and the most out to lunch is the ones posted by Suburbia.

A real estate agent is going to describe Canyon Meadows, heck even Airdrie to a client as inner city if it makes a sale.

True inner city: South of 16th avenue. East of Crowchild. West of Deerfoot. North of 26th Avenue S.
Vague inner city: South of 41st/32nd NE. East of Shaganappi. West of Barlow or 36th St. North of 50th/42nd Avenue S.

[ST1]

Those house in Speedog's photos aren't cheap, in fact they wouldn't be much better value than the ones from Toronto. Toronto is more expensive than Calgary, there's argument about that, but when it comes to older established neighborhoods in Calgary, expect to pay through the nose for a SFH or Duplex, or even a townhome.

Originally Posted by Western Spaghetti

These Calgary houses posted from speeddog are probably half the price of the Toronto ones that were over a $1million, and twice as nice. Almost makes me want to live in the inner city.













Toronto houses posted by GSS.


This is what a $1Million will buy you.

[ST1]

True inner city by who's definition?

Originally Posted by Suburgatory

A real estate agent is going to describe Canyon Meadows, heck even Airdrie to a client as inner city if it makes a sale.

True inner city: South of 16th avenue. East of Crowchild. West of Deerfoot. North of 26th Avenue S.
Vague inner city: South of 41st/32nd NE. East of Shaganappi. West of Barlow or 36th St. North of 50th/42nd Avenue S.

[suburbia]

Dp

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Tobyoby

Do those neighborhoods really fit those definitions? No they don't.

That was actually my point, Toby. The parts of Calgary that actually fit the real definition of Inner City are few. Basically the Core + Beltline + very few additional places. That's why I introduced the term Inner Sprawl for all those 50's and 60's neighbourhoods that have 1K sf on a 6K sf lot + unnecessary back alley (an additional 1K sf of wasted land, in addition to the 6K sf lot). These areas are the least dense in the entire city.

[jc_yyc_ca]

Originally Posted by suburbia

That was actually my point, Toby. The parts of Calgary that actually fit the real definition of Inner City are few. Basically the Core + Beltline + very few additional places. That's why I introduced the term Inner Sprawl for all those 50's and 60's neighbourhoods that have 1K sf on a 6K sf lot + unnecessary back alley (an additional 1K sf of wasted land, in addition to the 6K sf lot). These areas are the least dense in the entire city.

Why introduce a new term (inner city sprawl) just because the definition for inner city here in Calgary doesn't fit some outdated oxford dictionary version has it's own meaning relevant to the city? Also how do you account for a neighborhood like Hillhurst, which is an inner city neighborhood not being inner city sprawl or a ghetto?

Let's face it, no matter how you look at it, the word 'inner' implies location. Nothing to do with race or minorities or poor people, or limited education, etc... It is 100% a term used to describe location, and nothing more. The fact that in some cities the ghettos are in inner part of the city, doesn't make that the reason to tie that to the definition. In many cities nowadays the slums are evolving in suburbs and other parts of the city, while inner locations are becoming more expensive.

Your definitions of inner city applies more to neighborhoods like Erin Woods or Falconridge rather than Sunnyside or Bridgeland.

just accept inner city for what it is and what it means - in inner location of a city.

[suburbia]

Dp

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Bad Grizzly

These are definitely the typical definitions of what inner city is. The definitions sound like they are describing a ghetto, but in many cases the two go hand in hand.

Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_city
Quote:
The term "inner city" has been used as a euphemism for lower-income residential districts in the city center and nearby areas.
Dictionary - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/inner-city
Quote:
an older part of a city, densely populated and usually deteriorating, inhabited mainly by poor, often minority, groups.
Collins English Dictionary
Quote:
the parts of a city in or near its centre, esp when they are associated with poverty, unemployment, substandard housing, etc
New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, 3rd Edition
Quote:
A general term for impoverished areas of large cities. The inner city is characterized by minimal educational opportunities, high unemployment and crime rates, broken families, and inadequate housing. ( See ghettos.)
Dictionary - https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ghettos
Quote:
a section of a city, especially a thickly populated slum area, inhabited predominantly by members of an ethnic or other minority group, often as a result of social or economic restrictions, pressures, or hardships.

Agreed

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by jc_yyc_ca

Your definitions of inner city applies more to neighborhoods like Erin Woods or Falconridge rather than Sunnyside or Bridgeland.

I don't consider Falconridge or Erin Woods really to be high density. I would say that you would have a point with Forest Lawn, particularly given the Beltline and Forest Lawn are #1 / #2 on the police prostitution rankings.

At best, I think a small portion of Sunnyside is true inner city, and the southern half of Bridgeland. Heck, the Sunnyside NIMBYs defend having a curling rink and associated parking lot. That's not inner city, that's inner sprawl. There is no way that curling rink fits with the concept of inner city. The Beltline is really the gold standard (apologies for the oxymoron) when it comes to inner city and what the term inner city means in the rest of the world.

[Tobyoby]

Thank you. I was going to say the same thing. Various dictionary definitions that are 'generally referring to' have nothing to do with the actual meaning which is the location of a part of the city.

Also excellent points about ghettos and other areas that fit the definition of inner city being out in the burbs.

Originally Posted by jc_yyc_ca

Why introduce a new term (inner city sprawl) just because the definition for inner city here in Calgary doesn't fit some outdated oxford dictionary version has it's own meaning relevant to the city? Also how do you account for a neighborhood like Hillhurst, which is an inner city neighborhood not being inner city sprawl or a ghetto?

Let's face it, no matter how you look at it, the word 'inner' implies location. Nothing to do with race or minorities or poor people, or limited education, etc... It is 100% a term used to describe location, and nothing more. The fact that in some cities the ghettos are in inner part of the city, doesn't make that the reason to tie that to the definition. In many cities nowadays the slums are evolving in suburbs and other parts of the city, while inner locations are becoming more expensive.

Your definitions of inner city applies more to neighborhoods like Erin Woods or Falconridge rather than Sunnyside or Bridgeland.

just accept inner city for what it is and what it means - in inner location of a city.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by jc_yyc_ca

Why introduce a new term (inner city sprawl) just because the definition for inner city here in Calgary doesn't fit some outdated oxford dictionary version has it's own meaning relevant to the city?

Inner Sprawl as opposed to Inner City. There is no such thing as Inner City Sprawl, because Inner City should not have sprawl in it.

Calgary is not a world city that can manipulate globally accepted terms such as Inner City. And including areas of sprawl in Inner City is just so ridiculous.

[Tobyoby]

Originally Posted by suburbia

I don't consider Falconridge or Erin Woods really to be high density.

At best, I think a small portion of Sunnyside is true inner city, and the southern half of Bridgeland. Heck, the Sunnyside NIMBYs defend having a curling rink and associated parking lot. That's not inner city, that's inner sprawl. There is no way that curling rink fits with the concept of inner city. The Beltline is really the gold standard (apologies for the oxymoron) when it comes to inner city and what the term inner city means in the rest of the world.

It has nothing to do with density. A dense neighborhood is a dense regardless of it's location. There are suburbs in Paris that resemble your idea of an inner city neighborhood and are dense, almost the same density as some inner city locations, but are ghettos.

You got schooled on that argument, just let it go.

[Bad Grizzly]

Originally Posted by Tobyoby

Thank you. I was going to say the same thing. Various dictionary definitions that are 'generally referring to' have nothing to do with the actual meaning which is the location of a part of the city.

Also excellent points about ghettos and other areas that fit the definition of inner city being out in the burbs.

The word inner-city, is a term, just because it has the word “inner”in it doesn’t mean it’s entirely about a location. Anyone who doesn’t understand the negative connotation to inner-city, has been in a cave for the last 50 years.

[Bad Grizzly]

Originally Posted by Tobyoby

It has nothing to do with density. A dense neighborhood is a dense regardless of it's location. There are suburbs in Paris that resemble your idea of an inner city neighborhood and are dense, almost the same density as some inner city locations, but are ghettos.

You got schooled on that argument, just let it go.

Schooled? Well he did bring post a number of dictionary definitions. You do remember that book they call the dictionary? The one that educates people on definitions.

[jc_yyc_ca]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Inner Sprawl as opposed to Inner City. There is no such thing as Inner City Sprawl, because Inner City should not have sprawl in it.

Calgary is not a world city that can manipulate globally accepted terms such as Inner City. And including areas of sprawl in Inner City is just so ridiculous.

Wrong. A neighborhood is either located in the inner part of the city or it isn't. I'll give you the term inner sprawl, only because it's not worth my time arguing about it. You can have that.
Whether you like it or not, the inner city can have sprawl, thus inner city sprawl. Rosedale or Mount Royal are inner city neighborhoods that resemble suburban neighborhoods and are even less dense than most suburban areas.