Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Whistler in 80 minutes? Don't you mean Squamish?

No. I was referencing post #1842 where aberdeen5698 quoted the Vancouver to Whistler HSR report you referenced in post #1841. I hadn't read the report and didn't understand the context of the quote. I now take back the claim that 80 minutes to Whistler would be feasible. Even Option 4 (1:41 from Pacific Central Station to Whistler with 4 intermediate stops) seems a bit over reaching given the speeds they are talking about.

For reference, the Cariboo Prospector was able to go from North Vancouver to Squamish in 82 minutes (and North Van to Whistler in 2:34) with flag stops at Sunset Beach, Lions Bay, Brunswick, Porteau and Britannia (plus Brackendale, Cheakamus, Garibaldi and Water Tank) in 1996 using RDCs, which had a top speed 85 mph (137 km/h), though I doubt if they went that fast. ref It should be possible to do significantly better than that, though extending the line to either Waterfront or Pacific Central Station, would make the trip longer.

Originally Posted by fredinno

Even commuter rail was expected to have difficulty tuning a profit (though there were a lot of things in that study I would have changed, like terminating the line at Waterfront instead of Lonsdale+ a Skytrain tunnel, stations at Lions Bay and Fury Creek, two communities in rugged areas that have such low demand for transit that bus services to them are literally the least used bus routes in the transit system), and a potential future station in Upper Squamish once development spreads up the River Valley.

The study has the terminus at either Waterfront or Pacific Central Station (depending on the option), not Lonsdale. Is that what you were trying to say? If so, I agree that terminating at Lonsdale would actually make sense as getting across Burrard Inlet would be either expensive (they were talking about a 10 mile tunnel just to get to PCS) or time consuming (detouring to the Second Narrows Rail Bridge). While terminating at Lonsdale wouldn't be ideal, it seems a reasonable compromise to start with. The tunnel could come later, once service has been established.

To my defense (regarding the 160 km/h) the report does say the following:

To be competitive with the automobile it will be necessary to assess technologies and infrastructure that can make the trip from downtown Vancouver (Waterfront Station) to Whistler, including intermediate stops, in about 1 hour and 30 minutes. This is considered a "Higher Speed" scenario whereas a "High Speed" scenario is one where train speeds exceed 125 mph

125 mph = 201 km/h

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by roger1818

No. I was referencing post #1842 where aberdeen5698 quoted the Vancouver to Whistler HSR report you referenced in post #1841. I hadn't read the report and didn't understand the context of the quote. I now take back the claim that 80 minutes to Whistler would be feasible. Even Option 4 (1:41 from Pacific Central Station to Whistler with 4 intermediate stops) seems a bit over reaching given the speeds they are talking about.

For reference, the Cariboo Prospector was able to go from North Vancouver to Squamish in 82 minutes (and North Van to Whistler in 2:34) with flag stops at Sunset Beach, Lions Bay, Brunswick, Porteau and Britannia (plus Brackendale, Cheakamus, Garibaldi and Water Tank) in 1996 using RDCs, which had a top speed 85 mph (137 km/h), though I doubt if they went that fast. ref It should be possible to do significantly better than that, though extending the line to either Waterfront or Pacific Central Station, would make the trip longer.



The study has the terminus at either Waterfront or Pacific Central Station (depending on the option), not Lonsdale. Is that what you were trying to say? If so, I agree that terminating at Lonsdale would actually make sense as getting across Burrard Inlet would be either expensive (they were talking about a 10 mile tunnel just to get to PCS) or time consuming (detouring to the Second Narrows Rail Bridge). While terminating at Lonsdale wouldn't be ideal, it seems a reasonable compromise to start with. The tunnel could come later, once service has been established.

To my defense (regarding the 160 km/h) the report does say the following:

125 mph = 201 km/h

Ah, yeah, I screwed up the order. Just getting across to the other side of Burrard inlet right now is supposed to take 40 minutes....

[fredinno]

How much did it cost to implement the WCE?

[finalcoolman]

Originally Posted by fredinno

How much did it cost to implement the WCE?

The sad thing is, if the WCE was not implemented back in the day, it would never have been implemented today.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by finalcoolman

The sad thing is, if the WCE was not implemented back in the day, it would never have been implemented today.

TBF, we have the Evergreen Extension now. It's not as necessary as it once was.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by finalcoolman

The sad thing is, if the WCE was not implemented back in the day, it would never have been implemented today.

Originally Posted by fredinno

TBF, we have the Evergreen Extension now. It's not as necessary as it once was.

IMO, what Fredinno says is largely true, but with a view to the future, if / when the Eastern suburbs North of the Fraser are more and more built out, the WCE will prove very useful.
It is easy to forget that Vancouver is still a young, and relatively small city by world standards. There is a lot of growth coming over the next decades, and the need for more infrastructure.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by fredinno

TBF, we have the Evergreen Extension now. It's not as necessary as it once was.

I guess it depends on your definition of necessary. The WCE goes from Moody Centre to Waterfront in 25 minutes. By Skytrain, it is over 40 minutes. That isn't an insignificant time savings. Now granted not everyone is traveling from Moody Centre or to Waterfront, but in some cases it might be worth the detour.

With an average speed of under 60 km/h on that stretch alone, the WCE still isn't overly fast. If TransLink could buy that stretch of track from the CPR and it upgrade them, they could probably shave an extra 10 minutes off of the trip. With them owning their own tracks, they could then have all day trains between Port Moody (or maybe even Port Coquitlam) and Waterfront.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by roger1818

If TransLink could buy that stretch of track from the CPR and it upgrade them, they could probably shave an extra 10 minutes off of the trip. With them owning their own tracks, they could then have all day trains between Port Moody (or maybe even Port Coquitlam) and Waterfront.

The problem is that is never going to happen, those tracks are CP’s only line accesssing the container terminals in Burrard Inlet.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by roger1818

If TransLink could buy that stretch of track from the CPR and it upgrade them, they could probably shave an extra 10 minutes off of the trip. With them owning their own tracks, they could then have all day trains between Port Moody (or maybe even Port Coquitlam) and Waterfront.

It will never be sold by CP; ever.

Originally Posted by madog222

The problem is that is never going to happen, those tracks are CP’s only line accesssing the container terminals in Burrard Inlet.

this guy gets it

It is CP's only route into Vancouver, accessing one of the largest ports in Western North America. they will never sell it for as long as there is freight traffic.

Interesting PDF map of what companies own what railways in BC.


keep in mind freight traffic to the port has dramatically increased in recent years with CN reacting a line they had almost abandoned in the 90s. CN is also going to double track that. CN & CP will both want access to the port without limitations; it is a miracle CP still allows the WCE to operate. I will be curious to know if it is renewed in the future.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

It will never be sold by CP; ever.



this guy gets it

It is CP's only route into Vancouver, accessing one of the largest ports in Western North America. they will never sell it for as long as there is freight traffic.

Interesting PDF map of what companies own what railways in BC.


keep in mind freight traffic to the port has dramatically increased in recent years with CN reacting a line they had almost abandoned in the 90s. CN is also going to double track that. CN & CP will both want access to the port without limitations; it is a miracle CP still allows the WCE to operate. I will be curious to know if it is renewed in the future.

There's space for maybe 1 extra rail on the CN WCE line...and that's about it. OK for express service, not really for all-day service though. Maybe Translink could make another rail and lease it off to CN at the overnight hours, but WCE doesn't make a profit, as far as I know.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Ah, yeah, I screwed up the order. Just getting across to the other side of Burrard inlet right now is supposed to take 40 minutes....

I think this is perhaps the top reason why getting passenger rail service up to Squamish from Downtown Vancouver isn't a great idea, and why perhaps a fast passenger ferry service to Squamish + suburban shuttle bus service to Whistler would be a much more reasonable option. The cost alone to lay down rail and build a new rail crossing across the Inlet is going to be eye-watering expensive, and there's no guarantee that dumping all that money into such a crossing plus new track going up to Squamish and Whistler will be fiscally justifiable.

Considering the amount of backups on the Upper Level Highway this past week from people going up and back down from Whistler, I suspect even passenger bus service from Downtown Vancouver would have the same effective travel time during those peak congestion times.

Hence, my belief that if we were to try to embark on creating such a link, a passenger ferry service would provide the best balance between cost and attract the type of ridership that would justify creating the service; as pointed out in the report that was referenced, the option with the shortest travel time would require a bored tunnel for 60-80% of the route, and would not be attractive at all for most people considering a trip to Whistler. Furthermore, the other options of running a passenger rail service on existing track would result in an unacceptably long trip time.

At least with a passenger ferry service, while you are restricted in terms of speed while in Vancouver Harbour and near Squamish, the remainder of the route is open enough to allow a ferry to get up to speed for the bulk of the trip. If we can keep the total travel time to Squamish under an hour and 45 minutes from Downtown Vancouver, it becomes competitive with all but the highest speed rail.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by fredinno

There's space for maybe 1 extra rail on the CN WCE line...and that's about it. OK for express service, not really for all-day service though. Maybe Translink could make another rail and lease it off to CN at the overnight hours, but WCE doesn't make a profit, as far as I know.

CP line, not CN. CN runs through the Grandview Cut. CP & WCE go along the inlet to the north.

but WCE cant put track on CP property without their permission. and if there is any extra track CP would be building it for freight. also, TransLink cant afford to put in a track since that would cost lots of money for what would be mediocre gain. also, taking a quick look on google-maps, i don't see much space for another track without a lot of money building the ballast and regrading the land in a lot of areas.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I guess it depends on your definition of necessary. The WCE goes from Moody Centre to Waterfront in 25 minutes. By Skytrain, it is over 40 minutes. That isn't an insignificant time savings. Now granted not everyone is traveling from Moody Centre or to Waterfront, but in some cases it might be worth the detour.

With an average speed of under 60 km/h on that stretch alone, the WCE still isn't overly fast. If TransLink could buy that stretch of track from the CPR and it upgrade them, they could probably shave an extra 10 minutes off of the trip. With them owning their own tracks, they could then have all day trains between Port Moody (or maybe even Port Coquitlam) and Waterfront.

Hmm... WCE has always been a bit of a puzzle in how it fits with the metro area transit vision for me.

And perhaps I'm moving into transit fantasy territory, and perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but with all of those stats in mind (in the quoted post) it seems that the WCE is going to need a significant change in the future if we still want to keep the service.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

CP line, not CN. CN runs through the Grandview Cut. CP & WCE go along the inlet to the north.

but WCE cant put track on CP property without their permission. and if there is any extra track CP would be building it for freight. also, TransLink cant afford to put in a track since that would cost lots of money for what would be mediocre gain. also, taking a quick look on google-maps, i don't see much space for another track without a lot of money building the ballast and regrading the land in a lot of areas.

That's why I said maybe; there might be enough space for one extra track. It wouldn't exactly be easy though, it's not like the spacious ROW in Abbotsford.

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

I think this is perhaps the top reason why getting passenger rail service up to Squamish from Downtown Vancouver isn't a great idea, and why perhaps a fast passenger ferry service to Squamish + suburban shuttle bus service to Whistler would be a much more reasonable option. The cost alone to lay down rail and build a new rail crossing across the Inlet is going to be eye-watering expensive, and there's no guarantee that dumping all that money into such a crossing plus new track going up to Squamish and Whistler will be fiscally justifiable.

Considering the amount of backups on the Upper Level Highway this past week from people going up and back down from Whistler, I suspect even passenger bus service from Downtown Vancouver would have the same effective travel time during those peak congestion times.

Hence, my belief that if we were to try to embark on creating such a link, a passenger ferry service would provide the best balance between cost and attract the type of ridership that would justify creating the service; as pointed out in the report that was referenced, the option with the shortest travel time would require a bored tunnel for 60-80% of the route, and would not be attractive at all for most people considering a trip to Whistler. Furthermore, the other options of running a passenger rail service on existing track would result in an unacceptably long trip time.

At least with a passenger ferry service, while you are restricted in terms of speed while in Vancouver Harbour and near Squamish, the remainder of the route is open enough to allow a ferry to get up to speed for the bulk of the trip. If we can keep the total travel time to Squamish under an hour and 45 minutes from Downtown Vancouver, it becomes competitive with all but the highest speed rail.

And I have to remind people that Squamish has a population comparable to Walnut Grove. Nothing except buses are going to go there anytime soon, and by the time Squamish and Whistler actually need it, we'll most likely have some sort of transit tunnel to the other end of Burrard Inlet.

[ClaytonA]

Amtrak Cascades derailment backing into Pacific Central Station prior to Xmas;



https://web.archive.org/web/201901062322.../discussion/read.php?4,4691003,nodelay=1

Amtrak 516 derailed 3 cars at Vancouver, B.C. while making a reverse movement toward the passenger station today. 104 passengers on board. Cars 7417, 7418 and 7419 reported derailed, upright and leaning toward freight equipment on adjacent track. Train is due into Vancouver at 11:45 a.m. Mt. Olympus trainset.

[ClaytonA]

http://www.nwnewsnetwork.org/post/last-y...k-regional-train-service-expansion-years

... did more than cost three people their lives and injure dozens more. ... Washington state was all set to subsidize six daily roundtrips — up from four — using a new, faster bypass route south of Tacoma. The expanded and then retracted Amtrak Cascades schedule of last December would have had trains leaving both Seattle and Portland every two to three hours throughout the day.

...

Matkin said the number of unresolved variables in play make it impossible to predict when the long-desired service expansion on the Amtrak Cascades corridor could happen. ...

Not good for the service beginning to self-fund its operating costs. With the above Pacific Central Station derailment they are now down two train sets. Meanwhile BC and WSDOT continue to pump money into highways subsidizing trucking and single-occupant-vehicles and we have a pie-in-the-sky HSR on maglev trains study...

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

Meanwhile BC and WSDOT continue to pump money into highways subsidizing trucking and single-occupant-vehicles and we have a pie-in-the-sky HSR on maglev trains study...

You won't see much movement in high speed anything for another 20 years. No political movement will drop the money for much of anything that will not return a profit for decades, if ever, until they are pushed to do so at the polls. It's low hanging fruit to be attacked with later come the next election.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by MIPS

You won't see much movement in high speed anything for another 20 years. No political movement will drop the money for much of anything that will not return a profit for decades, if ever, until they are pushed to do so at the polls. It's low hanging fruit to be attacked with later come the next election.

What might the break-even point for that and fast-ferry to Nanaimo be?

[fredinno]

Ok, I've been looking at the HSR report, and I can't reconcile myself with the fact that Maglev is somehow supposed to hit break-even before HSR despite its higher costs.

http://leg.wa.gov/JTC/Meetings/Documents...17%20Meeting/WSDOTUltraHighSpeedRail.pdf

Is Maglev going to attract that many more people?


Also, anyone have access to the detailed study?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by scryer

Hmm... WCE has always been a bit of a puzzle in how it fits with the metro area transit vision for me.

And perhaps I'm moving into transit fantasy territory, and perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but with all of those stats in mind (in the quoted post) it seems that the WCE is going to need a significant change in the future if we still want to keep the service.

If there is any change the WCE needs, it's more trains. That thing is packed every day leaving Waterfront. I haven't really been on the early trains, but the 5, 5:30 and 6:20 trains usually leave with every seat taken.

Not only is the WCE faster for a lot of downtown to suburb trips (especially if you are going to Port Coquitlam and beyond), but the level of comfort is unmatched on the rest of Translink. It's a premium service that attracts premium riders: people who have more than enough money to drive, and wouldn't be caught dead on Skytrain.

Originally Posted by fredinno

That's why I said maybe; there might be enough space for one extra track. It wouldn't exactly be easy though, it's not like the spacious ROW in Abbotsford.



And I have to remind people that Squamish has a population comparable to Walnut Grove. Nothing except buses are going to go there anytime soon, and by the time Squamish and Whistler actually need it, we'll most likely have some sort of transit tunnel to the other end of Burrard Inlet.

Walnut Grove does have a giant park and ride, with Express bus service direct to Lougheed station on HOV lanes with dedicated, direct exits. Pretty sweet.

It's funny how when we talk about Skytrain we are obsessed with TOD, but why not pair TOD and commuter/intercity rail as a conversation?

The long term promise of the Evergreen line might have encouraged planners in the Tri Cities to zone for high density, but without the WCE people would not have been as willing to buy into it.

People usually aren't interested sacrificing years of their lives on the hopes that promises will be fulfilled and they will have reliable transit. The WCE was an attractive service that allowed for TOD style development around WCE stations and planned Evergreen line stations for decades.

As great as the upgrades to the Sea to Sky are, it is still an unreliable road that can't handle much more traffic volume if there were a population boom in Squamish.

Squamish has a lot of developable land and is well situated to be a vibrant exurb/suburb of the lower Mainland. There is a decent local economy, and the proximity to winter sporting venues could make it an attractive location for University satellite campuses.

But you can't really start dropping thousands more people there without infrastructure. Further upgrading the highway could cost billions. Whereas decent speed intercity/commuter rail could be quite affordable.

If the service was extended to Whistler, then trains travelling regularly in both directions would serve commuters travelling to the city, Whistler workers living in Squamish, and tourists looking for an easy way to visit Sea to Sky.

In my opinion, waiting for there to be a problem before fixing it is the same as planning on people making poor decisions.

If we want more places for people to live in the region (like Squamish) then we have do things to encourage it, not hope people make a bad personal decision then reward their mistakes decades later with the infrastructure they always needed.

If we don't want to encourage and help people to live in places like Squamish, then the alternative is ever skyrocketing real estate prices or the consumption of more ALR lands.