Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

HA! Where exactly are you going to run 160km/h-capable track between Vancouver and Whistler? Your only choices in that corridor are slow or insanely, prohibitively expensive.

There was this: http://www.urbanstudio.sala.ubc.ca/squamish2004/trans%20High-Speed_Passenger_Rail.pdf

The top speed of tilting-body (non-HSR) would be 150mph, and would cost about $119 Million if you stopped in 'North Vancouver' (I guess just outside Lonsdale?) If you had a Skytrain up there, the additional expensive proposed trans-harbor tunnel could be avoided.

However, even at a 2h 7min time for the max speed of a non-HSR tilting-body train, it's still be uneconomical.

In fact, pretty much all the options were considered uneconomical. Considering BC Rail's previous experience on the line, I would have to say I reluctantly agree.

If Squamish doubles in size, into a true exurb of Vancouver, I can see it happening.

In any case, we probably won't see it until at least there's rapid transit across the harbour.

It depends where in Canada you are talking about. The Quebec City/Windsor corridor already has inter-city rail and VIA has plans to make it faster, more reliable, and more economical. I could also see an Edmonton Calgary train. Vancouver-Whistler would also make a lot of sense. It doesn't need to be HSR as even 160km/h is still very competitive.

The other factor for most of Canada is winter and rail is the safest, most reliable mode of transportation when there is bad weather. Airports and highways will close during a bad storm, but the trains keep running.

I was talking more trans-Canada movement. Commuter Rail in between the exurbs/satellite cities could definitely become economically viable within the foreseeable future, assuming proper investments are made.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by fredinno

There was this: http://www.urbanstudio.sala.ubc.ca/squamish2004/trans%20High-Speed_Passenger_Rail.pdf

The top speed of tilting-body (non-HSR) would be 150mph, and would cost about $119 Million if you stopped in 'North Vancouver' (I guess just outside Lonsdale?)

Top speed is essentially irrelevant if the average speed makes the trip excessively long. I was replying to Roger1818, who was suggesting you could make 160km/h, but the paper you quoted says:

It is the opinion of this report that to achieve a total trip time of about 1 hour, between the two terminal stations, requires the average speed to increase to around 74 mph with only one intermediate stop at Squamish. This would result in between 60% and 80% of the total distance being in a tunnel and would not be acceptable to the patrons of the service resulting in very poor ridership. The capital cost would increase to well over $2 billion.

74mph is well under the 160km/h that Roger1818 was suggesting. Those kinds of speeds are completely infeasible for that corridor without spending a LOT of money. And there just aren't enough people who would use the service to get anywhere near justifying the expense. Heck, it's hard enough to get a Skytrain line built even though it's going to benefit literally hundreds of thousands of riders EVERY DAY. If we've got a few billion bucks to throw around that would be a far better place to spend the money.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Top speed is essentially irrelevant if the average speed makes the trip excessively long. I was replying to Roger1818, who was suggesting you could make 160km/h, but the paper you quoted says:



74mph is well under the 160km/h that Roger1818 was suggesting. Those kinds of speeds are completely infeasible for that corridor without spending a LOT of money. And there just aren't enough people who would use the service to get anywhere near justifying the expense. Heck, it's hard enough to get a Skytrain line built even though it's going to benefit literally hundreds of thousands of riders EVERY DAY. If we've got a few billion bucks to throw around that would be a far better place to spend the money.

I was referring to top speed, not average speed. People like to talk about the top speed of a train, not its average speed, just like when driving people talk about their cruising speed on a highway, not the average speed they drive from a to b, which includes time stopped in traffic or at a red light.

If you look at Montreal-Ottawa, it is about 185 km and the trains have a top speed of 160km/h (and do it a significant amount of the time), but yet the trip takes about 2 hours, so you are looking at an average speed of under 95 km/h. Just for reference, 74 mph is 119 km/h, which would be a very good average speed for a train with a top speed of 160km/h. They were more likely trying for a top speed of 125 mph (201 km/h), which it the maximum speed before it is considered HSR.

My question is, do you even need to get travel times to Whistler down to 1 hour? With an average speed of 90 km/h, it could be done under 80 minutes, which would still be competitive with a car.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I was referring to top speed, not average speed. People like to talk about the top speed of a train, not its average speed, just like when driving people talk about their cruising speed on a highway, not the average speed they drive from a to b, which includes time stopped in traffic or at a red light.

If you look at Montreal-Ottawa, it is about 185 km and the trains have a top speed of 160km/h (and do it a significant amount of the time), but yet the trip takes about 2 hours, so you are looking at an average speed of under 95 km/h. Just for reference, 74 mph is 119 km/h, which would be a very good average speed for a train with a top speed of 160km/h. They were more likely trying for a top speed of 125 mph (201 km/h), which it the maximum speed before it is considered HSR.

My question is, do you even need to get travel times to Whistler down to 1 hour? With an average speed of 90 km/h, it could be done under 80 minutes, which would still be competitive with a car.

Whistler in 80 minutes? Don't you mean Squamish?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Whistler in 80 minutes? Don't you mean Squamish?

If the train's going to Squamish, it might as well go to Whistler.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If the train's going to Squamish, it might as well go to Whistler.

There's a difference. Squamish is close enough to be considered an exurb, and can be justified to be built on Translink's dollar (like the WCE to Mission), assuming stations in West Van. Whistler is a completely different animal.

[WestCoastEcho]

Wonder if it makes more sense to run a water taxi service to Squamish from North Van.

Should be a cheaper solution than to run a new rail line plus the locomotive and rolling stock, and can dodge vehicle traffic on the Sea to Sky Highway.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

Wonder if it makes more sense to run a water taxi service to Squamish from North Van.

Should be a cheaper solution than to run a new rail line plus the locomotive and rolling stock, and can dodge vehicle traffic on the Sea to Sky Highway.

Considering the Seabus cruises at 21.3 km/h, no. You may as well go with actual buses at that point.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

There's a difference. Squamish is close enough to be considered an exurb, and can be justified to be built on Translink's dollar (like the WCE to Mission), assuming stations in West Van. Whistler is a completely different animal.

We have discussed getting the WCE to Chilliwack...

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Considering the Seabus cruises at 21.3 km/h, no. You may as well go with actual buses at that point.

Could get a ferry that could get up to 25 knots, so roughly 53km/h. There's a number of used passenger ferries out there that can go that fast, and can carry roughly 250 passengers. That would keep travel times reasonable.

If departure can be arranged from near Waterfront Station, it can feed directly into the Skytrain and SeaBus stations, and terminate near the Sea to Sky Gondola (say, the Darrell Bay Ferry Terminal). From there, bus service can be arranged with BC Transit to serve the terminal to run into Squamish and up into Whistler.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

Could get a ferry that could get up to 25 knots, so roughly 53km/h.

Perhaps you're too young to remember this, but the term "fast ferries" is a sure path to political suicide.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Perhaps you're too young to remember this, but the term "fast ferries" is a sure path to political suicide.

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/clipper-vancouver-victoria-high-speed-ferry
It might be palatable if we go the IPP route, and let a private proxy run it.

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

Could get a ferry that could get up to 25 knots, so roughly 53km/h. There's a number of used passenger ferries out there that can go that fast, and can carry roughly 250 passengers. That would keep travel times reasonable.

If departure can be arranged from near Waterfront Station, it can feed directly into the Skytrain and SeaBus stations, and terminate near the Sea to Sky Gondola (say, the Darrell Bay Ferry Terminal). From there, bus service can be arranged with BC Transit to serve the terminal to run into Squamish and up into Whistler.

That's still way slower than the Sea-to-Sky and Upper Levels speed limit @ 80-100km/h.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by fredinno

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/clipper-vancouver-victoria-high-speed-ferry
It might be palatable if we go the IPP route, and let a private proxy run it.



That's still way slower than the Sea-to-Sky and Upper Levels speed limit @ 80-100km/h.

The difference is that it avoids traffic bottlenecks on either the Lions Gateor Second Narrows getting up to and on the Sea-to-Sky and Upper Levels for anyone leaving Vancouver.

Actual travel time should be fairly equivalent as a result, and because it departs Vancouver near Waterfront, it should tie in well with transit.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

The difference is that it avoids traffic bottlenecks on either the Lions Gateor Second Narrows getting up to and on the Sea-to-Sky and Upper Levels for anyone leaving Vancouver.

Actual travel time should be fairly equivalent as a result, and because it departs Vancouver near Waterfront, it should tie in well with transit.

...which wouldn't exist if you already have Skytrain up to the Quay, something you need to build regardless at some point in the next 30 years, because of the limited transportation expansion options up the North Shore.

Also, the speed would be limited in Vancouver Harbor due to conflicts with other boat traffic, and I don't think building a Seabus in Point Grey is going to be a popular decision.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

Could get a ferry that could get up to 25 knots, so roughly 53km/h. There's a number of used passenger ferries out there that can go that fast, and can carry roughly 250 passengers. That would keep travel times reasonable.

If departure can be arranged from near Waterfront Station, it can feed directly into the Skytrain and SeaBus stations, and terminate near the Sea to Sky Gondola (say, the Darrell Bay Ferry Terminal). From there, bus service can be arranged with BC Transit to serve the terminal to run into Squamish and up into Whistler.

I'm guessing that a transfer to a SeaBus and then a Greyhound won't be very popular with the Whistler crowd. With a train, you just put your skis or board on the overhead rack and sleep for an hour or two.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I'm guessing that a transfer to a SeaBus and then a Greyhound won't be very popular with the Whistler crowd. With a train, you just put your skis or board on the overhead rack and sleep for an hour or two.

The issue is what is the point. There is already a shuttle bus service from downtown

https://epicrides.ca/

Schedule: https://epicrides.ca/epic-rides-schedule/

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by fredinno

...which wouldn't exist if you already have Skytrain up to the Quay, something you need to build regardless at some point in the next 30 years, because of the limited transportation expansion options up the North Shore.

Also, the speed would be limited in Vancouver Harbor due to conflicts with other boat traffic, and I don't think building a Seabus in Point Grey is going to be a popular decision.

However, the capital investment to purchase a fast passenger ferry to run to Squamish, plus terminal investment should be a order of magnitude cheaper than trying to run rail.

Departing Vancouver would be from the Convention Centre, similar to how V2V is using the Convention Centre as their Vancouver terminal.

I know that the Darrell Bay Ferry Terminal near Squamish is effectively unused; it is currently used as an emergency ferry docking terminal and overflow parking for nearby tourist attractions, and the MoT restricts usage of the terminal for use as a ferry terminal. However, there is support from local businesses to turn the terminal into something that is publicly available for tourism from local tourism providers. It would need a terminal building and ticketing office to be built at the site.

Alternatively, the ferry could just dock right near the yacht club (if the draft of the ship is under 8ft), or develop a terminal at Newport Beach (which is under development proposal).

Ideally, this would be sold as a slightly more premium offering than a shuttle bus; more comfortable seating, and perhaps an onboard coffee bar or cafe for quick snacks.

I would argue terminating in Squamish makes sense if you are trying to develop Squamish as a bedroom community for Vancouver; if you want to serve Whistler, you could tag on a express bus service to Whistler to be served by a number of suburban buses to connect Whistler and Squamish (of note, there is no transit service between Squamish and Whistler as served by BC Transit). Or one, could arrange the Squamish Connector or the The Shred Shuttle to have a pickup location at the terminal.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

However, the capital investment to purchase a fast passenger ferry to run to Squamish, plus terminal investment should be a order of magnitude cheaper than trying to run rail.

Departing Vancouver would be from the Convention Centre, similar to how V2V is using the Convention Centre as their Vancouver terminal.

I know that the Darrell Bay Ferry Terminal near Squamish is effectively unused; it is currently used as an emergency ferry docking terminal and overflow parking for nearby tourist attractions, and the MoT restricts usage of the terminal for use as a ferry terminal. However, there is support from local businesses to turn the terminal into something that is publicly available for tourism from local tourism providers. It would need a terminal building and ticketing office to be built at the site.

Alternatively, the ferry could just dock right near the yacht club (if the draft of the ship is under 8ft), or develop a terminal at Newport Beach (which is under development proposal).

Ideally, this would be sold as a slightly more premium offering than a shuttle bus; more comfortable seating, and perhaps an onboard coffee bar or cafe for quick snacks.

I would argue terminating in Squamish makes sense if you are trying to develop Squamish as a bedroom community for Vancouver; if you want to serve Whistler, you could tag on a express bus service to Whistler to be served by a number of suburban buses to connect Whistler and Squamish (of note, there is no transit service between Squamish and Whistler as served by BC Transit). Or one, could arrange the Squamish Connector or the The Shred Shuttle to have a pickup location at the terminal.

Not only is Woodfibre supposed to be used for LNG in the future (meaning that it's not going to stay unused forever), Darrell Bay is pretty far from Squamish. Like literally over an hour walking from Darrell Terminal to downtown Squamish. Considering Squamish is already pretty spread out...


Not to mention, Squamish has a population comparable to Walnut Grove, BC. Even commuter rail was expected to have difficulty tuning a profit (though there were a lot of things in that study I would have changed, like terminating the line at Waterfront instead of Lonsdale+ a Skytrain tunnel, stations at Lions Bay and Fury Creek, two communities in rugged areas that have such low demand for transit that bus services to them are literally the least used bus routes in the transit system), and a potential future station in Upper Squamish once development spreads up the River Valley.

[casper]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Not only is Woodfibre supposed to be used for LNG in the future (meaning that it's not going to stay unused forever), Darrell Bay is pretty far from Squamish. Like literally over an hour walking from Darrell Terminal to downtown Squamish. Considering Squamish is already pretty spread out...


Not to mention, Squamish has a population comparable to Walnut Grove, BC. Even commuter rail was expected to have difficulty tuning a profit (though there were a lot of things in that study I would have changed, like terminating the line at Waterfront instead of Lonsdale+ a Skytrain tunnel, stations at Lions Bay and Fury Creek, two communities in rugged areas that have such low demand for transit that bus services to them are literally the least used bus routes in the transit system), and a potential future station in Upper Squamish once development spreads up the River Valley.

Squamish already has BC Transit service:

https://bctransit.com/sites/Satellite?bl...bs&blobwhere=1530734058507&ssbinary=true

[Trainguy]

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news...ehicle-hit-by-train-in-langley-on-sunday

I know this crossing well and it meets all the transport Canada requirements so the couple in question must have been disorientated regarding the crossing. Usually there is ample time between the lights and bells activating and the time the train reaches the crossing.

My condolences to those affect by this tragedy, including the engineer and conductor of the train.

BTW, this is not the same crossing where an ambulance was struck around 3 years ago. That crossing is east of this one.