San Francisco Is Suffering From The Excesses Of Its Own Liberalism

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Not really. Site specific demand is great, and that demand is a function of govt. oversight.


No, it points to the power of the state, and regulatory authority. There would be no Billionaires Row absent Central Park, strict zoning and redistributive housing requirements.

Places with something approaching pure capitalism rarely have the environments to facilitate towers.

Come on man, you are the king of pushing the yard line in debates.

Do you honestly think any of us think the US or any other country has "pure capitalism?" That would literally be impossible because capitalism works within the confines of a government that can enforce contracts etc and create peace.

On a sliding scale, the US is capitalistic and our urban centers are the ultimate showcase of that. Its nonstop money money money and selling selling selling.

[jtown,man]

I mean, I would think a place you live in where homes don't go for under 1 million is probably more capitalistic then where my mom lives, where homes for under 200k are the norm.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Crawford

You claimed that skyscrapers are "purely capitalist"

I did? Here is a direct quote of what I said:

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ An utterly meaningless post.

Building skyscrapers is a capitalist enterprise. Period.
.

Originally Posted by Crawford

This is obviously all nonsense. Built skyscrapers rarely provide the most efficient/profitable building envelope.

So skyscrapers aren't making people money?



Crawford, you're wonderful

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Fair enough. You must see a strike against every country on Earth then since slavery has been everywhere. So would that even count as a strike anymore?

Europe had long before outlawed slavery, the US was established with it being legal. Also, 150 is barely a blip in human history. The US was the last country other than Brazil to outlaw it. It's a pretty bad history to me. And the racial aspect makes it even worse.

I can't stand all the adoration for "Founding Fathers" that instituted the system.

[chrisvfr800i]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Why is it odd? Urban centers lean left, worldwide.

There is nothing "uniquely capitalistic" about skscrapers, BTW. More often than not, signature skyscrapers are built for reasons other than demand, while run-of-the-mill residential highrises are rarely purely market rate in top-tier cities.

Whatever you say, pal.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

Europe had long before outlawed slavery, the US was established with it being legal. Also, 150 is barely a blip in human history. The US was the last country other than Brazil to outlaw it. It's a pretty bad history to me. And the racial aspect makes it even worse.

I can't stand all the adoration for "Founding Fathers" that instituted the system.

Really? Most European countries banned slavery a few decades before the US. When you look at history and how slavery has been around for thousands of years you will fault a country based on a few decades? And then you mention 150 years is a blimp in history but a few decades is still bothering you?

The fact that you think Brazil was the last country to ban slavery tells me your view is 100% Eurocentric and you don't really know much about slavery in history.

The adoration of them is based on what they did within the confines of their time. If you don't know historical context zero history will please you.

[Kenmore]

it's super cool that millenials are going to kill capitalism

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Kenmore

it's super cool that millenials are going to kill capitalism

I see that millennials love capitalism more than any other generation. They buy more —, think paying 25 dollars for chicken and waffles at a hipster restaurant is rational along with a 14 dollar cocktail, and think traveling is somehow a 'right' and they need to travel as much as possible to fill their Instagram feeds.

No, young people may pretend they don't like capitalism, but they really are the product of capitalism in so many ways...

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

So skyscrapers aren't making people money?

I have no idea what this means, or the relevance. Everything is potentially a conduit for "making money" and that has nothing to do with left-leaning political philosophies. The Soviet Union had lots of opportunities for "making money".

This conversation started when someone was shocked that a skyscraper site had left-leaning members, with the poster obviously quite ignorant about skyscrapers and urban development patterns, which generally wouldn't exist absent heavy govt. oversight. Practically every notable skyscraper cluster on earth leans left relative to surroundings.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Kenmore

get a load of this old guy

A typical response to people nowadays who think they know it all(and are witty!) yet dispute nothing.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

Europe had long before outlawed slavery, the US was established with it being legal. Also, 150 is barely a blip in human history. The US was the last country other than Brazil to outlaw it. It's a pretty bad history to me. And the racial aspect makes it even worse.

I can't stand all the adoration for "Founding Fathers" that instituted the system.

American slavery is a direct product of the European slave trade. Europeans never imported slaves directly to Europe and instead sent them to their far flung colonies...out of sight out of mind but don't kid yourself if you think they 'long outlawed it' before the US. The founding fathers were a product of their respective eras. No one is saying the founding fathers were without fault but they were still a product of their respective eras..i.e. much different than ours today. This must always be taken into context and no one who understands history glosses over the not-so-great aspects of our past. This is like woke Millennials freaking out after binge watching Friends on Netflix over the un-PC comments between Ross and Chandler.

You know banned slavery before any European? Vermont.

[Vlajos]

^ yep, I was completely wrong on my dates. Continental Europe had basically no slavery for a long time, but it was not legally outlawed until much later.

Also, I fully admit I am euro centric. Something my wife complains about all the time.

[Pedestrian]

^^I want to second what JManc said, but if you think the US was late in abolishing slavery, consider:

The Arab slave trade was most active in West Asia, North Africa, and Southeast Africa. In the early 20th century (post-World War I), slavery was gradually outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France. Slavery in the Ottoman Empire was abolished in 1924 when the new Turkish Constitution disbanded the Imperial Harem and made the last concubines and eunuchs free citizens of the newly proclaimed republic. Slavery in Iran was abolished in 1929. Among the last states to abolish slavery were Saudi Arabia and Yemen, which abolished slavery in 1962 under pressure from Britain; Oman in 1970; and Mauritania in 1905, 1981, and again in August 2007. However, slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented at present in the predominantly Islamic countries of the Sahel, and is also practiced in territories controlled by Islamist rebel groups, as in Libya . . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

Which has always made the attraction of Islam to African-Americans seem curious to me.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

^ yep, I was completely wrong on my dates. Continental Europe had basically no slavery for a long time, but it was not legally outlawed until much later.

Also, I fully admit I am euro centric. Something my wife complains about all the time.

and here is a much bigger issue that you are incorrect about than just your knee jerk slamming the usa.

slavery itself.

still exists.

culturally and legally.

five non-africa places:
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/these-5-countries-58-worlds-slaves/

40+M slaves around the world:
https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/modern-slavery/

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

^^I want to second what JManc said, but if you think the US was late in abolishing slavery, consider:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

Which has always made the attraction of Islam to African-Americans seem curious to me.

Or even Christianity.

[JoeMusashi]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i DEFINITELY put my Chicagoness way above being american.

i am a chicagoan first and foremost. i am only american because i have to be.

this is the only flag i salute:


source: http://www.architecture.org/learn/resources/architecture-dictionary/entry/the-chicago-flag/

When Chicago becomes a city-state, I hope the politics don't veer to far too the left like a certain brown leather object on Sunday.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

But urbanism also relies extremely heavily on capitalism and wealth. A skyscraper is just a more 'in your face' example of urbanism.

My point was “urbanism” inspires more left leaning views, despite skyscrapers being a capitalist endeavor. Perhaps that’s because living closer together does that.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Really? Most European countries banned slavery a few decades before the US. When you look at history and how slavery has been around for thousands of years you will fault a country based on a few decades? And then you mention 150 years is a blimp in history but a few decades is still bothering you?

The fact that you think Brazil was the last country to ban slavery tells me your view is 100% Eurocentric and you don't really know much about slavery in history.

The adoration of them is based on what they did within the confines of their time. If you don't know historical context zero history will please you.

It’s slavery + Jim Crow in the South and just plain racism in the north (the north needed the national guard to enforce desegregation) . There are still many folks who remember what fountain they were drinking out of. That type of hate/prejudice doesn’t disappear after a generation or two.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

It’s slavery + Jim Crow in the South and just plain racism in the north (the north needed the national guard to enforce desegregation) . There are still many folks who remember what fountain they were drinking out of. That type of hate/prejudice doesn’t disappear after a generation or two.

This is one area where comparing Europe (example used earlier) to the US is apples and oranges. Europe never had a sizable visible minority to discriminate (other than ethnic groups within their own borders...but other white Europeans); we have two. Native Americans and blacks and we treated them both like — dating back to colonial era. The other countries with a similar history as ours are also former colonies and also have had a sordid relationship with their respective minority groups and societal effects linger to this day.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

^^I want to second what JManc said, but if you think the US was late in abolishing slavery, consider:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

Which has always made the attraction of Islam to African-Americans seem curious to me.

Yeah, one of my Arabic professors had a grandmother who was still alive who owned slaves in Saudi Arabia back when it was legal. This was like 6 years ago, so she might still be alive.