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  #2221  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 2:22 PM
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FutureWickedCity FutureWickedCity is offline
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I am honestly disgusted at all you people ganging up like a pack of wolves on someone who has a visionary idea for the region. Do you not think that Ottawa is going to expand greatly in the next decades? Do you not think we're going to end up with the same problems as Toronto? Do you really think the existing model of everyone driving cars is sustainable? And to the guy who said "it would be great if we had European towns but we don't, this is Canada", Ottawa is actually blessed by having many beautiful towns around our radius and I could see many thousands of people opting to live in those towns and commute into Ottawa. If people will move to a suburban Hell like Barrhaven to save money, they would surely move to an outlying town that actually has character and green space and a real community. As someone who doesn't drive a car, I would love be able to visit these towns without having to get a ride from someone. All you naysayers, I've seen your statistics and logistics, and yes it's a challenging project but maybe if we came up with solutions instead of just shitting on the idea, there could be a path forward.
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  #2222  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 3:22 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by FutureWickedCity View Post
I am honestly disgusted at all you people ganging up like a pack of wolves on someone who has a visionary idea for the region. Do you not think that Ottawa is going to expand greatly in the next decades? Do you not think we're going to end up with the same problems as Toronto? Do you really think the existing model of everyone driving cars is sustainable? And to the guy who said "it would be great if we had European towns but we don't, this is Canada", Ottawa is actually blessed by having many beautiful towns around our radius and I could see many thousands of people opting to live in those towns and commute into Ottawa. If people will move to a suburban Hell like Barrhaven to save money, they would surely move to an outlying town that actually has character and green space and a real community. As someone who doesn't drive a car, I would love be able to visit these towns without having to get a ride from someone. All you naysayers, I've seen your statistics and logistics, and yes it's a challenging project but maybe if we came up with solutions instead of just shitting on the idea, there could be a path forward.
People are free to criticize a project that will have impacts on regional housing affordability, could impact the ability of the Trillium Line reaching its full potential, has escalated in costs over 7 years before a single study has even been done, and has not coordinated land use policies by local municipalities to ensure that Moose wont lead to accelerating sprawl.

Just because it is privately funded doesn't mean it gets a free pass. In fact, this could well be a reason to scrutinize it even more as the company wont have the same accountability and transparency that a public agency has, once it is up and running, while still having the same kind of impacts on development in the region.

There is nothing wrong with talking about, and planning for, regional/commuter rail in the NCR and beyond. Most people here want to see more travel possible by rail, and more sustainable development. And there are some smart, knowledgeable, creative people on this forum that could probably provide some useful ideas on it. But no amount of brainstorming and working together is going to save Moose. The more you dig, the more flaws you find. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with trying something different, but the further outside of the norm you go, the more likely an idea is to break down under scrutiny and reality. Trying to figure out how to make regional/commuter rail work in a region the size of the NCR, which is unheard of in Canada, is going to take some truly bold and ingenious thinking well beyond anything that has been tossed around in the public so far.
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  #2223  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 3:26 PM
Allandale25 Allandale25 is offline
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Since you bring up Smiths Falls. Council's support was contingent on the fact that the "economic development officer will be able to review the finer points of the plan, before making any firm commitments."... "If all goes according to plan the system would be ready by 2017"

Perhaps you could enlighten us on the results of that review.

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Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Go ahead and ask them. (You shouldn't ask me to speak for them.)

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com
You didn't post the review on your website?

Last edited by Allandale25; Jan 8, 2019 at 3:28 PM. Reason: make better
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  #2224  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 3:28 PM
Allandale25 Allandale25 is offline
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Originally Posted by FutureWickedCity View Post
I am honestly disgusted at all you people ganging up like a pack of wolves on someone who has a visionary idea for the region.
It's called accountability and transparency. Public infrastructure plans are scurinized all the time. Why should it be any different than the public sector?

Also when a private sector plan has the potential to distract or create complications to a democratically approved transit plan by Council - one that has its studies done and funding in place - it's even more important to ask questions.

No one is forcing anyone to post here. If they don't like the questions they don't have to comment here.
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  #2225  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 5:14 PM
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FutureWickedCity FutureWickedCity is offline
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Absolutely correct, you're all free to criticize as much as you like, and I'm entitled to provide a counterpoint. I would simply like to see some positive suggestions instead of all the pooh-poohing. I've observed a mob mentality on this particular thread and I don't think it's helpful, and I don't blame Mr. Potvin for getting emotional sometimes when he's being attacked from every direction.
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  #2226  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 5:18 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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We need to distinguish intercity rail from commuter rail from urban rail. They all have different purposes and equipment and fares are structured to meet their specific markets.

VIA's HFR is mainly directed to the intercity market. Seats must be available for longer distance travellers. People who are commuters will only fill those seats for a part of the trip and there is a great likelihood that those seats will be empty for the remainder of a trip.

If you go to VIA's website, you will find that the fare for Ottawa-Toronto is the same as Brockville-Toronto. The reason being that the seat purchased for Brockville-Toronto will likely be empty for Ottawa-Brockville.

It is not likely that VIA can efficiently serve commuters using the same trains that are for intercity purposes.

It is for this reason that a separate service geared to commuters is needed. The amenities on those trains will be designed for commuters. For example, there will likely be no food service even to purchase on commuter trains. Fares will be structured for shorter trips and the overall economics is to maximize train capacity at a certain point on the route, instead of maximizing the capacity from the starting point.
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  #2227  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 5:21 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by FutureWickedCity View Post
Absolutely correct, you're all free to criticize as much as you like, and I'm entitled to provide a counterpoint. I would simply like to see some positive suggestions instead of all the pooh-poohing. I've observed a mob mentality on this particular thread and I don't think it's helpful, and I don't blame Mr. Potvin for getting emotional sometimes when he's being attacked from every direction.
My only concerns have been as a skeptic about the viability of the service, and a concern about interference with urban LRT service.

Otherwise, I have been watching to see if anything unfolds concerning MOOSE.

As result, I have been mostly an observer in this discussion. I am all for more transportation options when it makes sense.
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  #2228  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 10:20 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by FutureWickedCity View Post
I am honestly disgusted at all you people ganging up like a pack of wolves on someone who has a visionary idea for the region. Do you not think that Ottawa is going to expand greatly in the next decades? Do you not think we're going to end up with the same problems as Toronto? Do you really think the existing model of everyone driving cars is sustainable? And to the guy who said "it would be great if we had European towns but we don't, this is Canada", Ottawa is actually blessed by having many beautiful towns around our radius and I could see many thousands of people opting to live in those towns and commute into Ottawa. If people will move to a suburban Hell like Barrhaven to save money, they would surely move to an outlying town that actually has character and green space and a real community. As someone who doesn't drive a car, I would love be able to visit these towns without having to get a ride from someone. All you naysayers, I've seen your statistics and logistics, and yes it's a challenging project but maybe if we came up with solutions instead of just shitting on the idea, there could be a path forward.
I’m not sure most people see this as a visionary idea. At best it is a scheme to boost rural property values. At worst it is a vexatious litigant who likes to blog about it.

I would also note that by most readings of the business plan people would not be moving to established communities, they would be moving into subdivisions in the general vicinity of these towns (so whatever hellish attributes you believe Barrhaven possesses, would almost certainly be shared by these hypothetical communities).

Your assertion that we should ignore statistics and logistics frankly sounds Trumpish. I for one have had enough of policy being set by nostalgia for a bygone era that was never all that great.
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  #2229  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 12:36 AM
Charles5 Charles5 is offline
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...
I'll try and do a little digging and see if I can find something.

Edit: Request sent to "[email protected]" for a copy of any review that may have been completed. I'll let folks know if I receive anything.
I received a reply from the Manager, Economic Development and Tourism of Smiths Falls. She indicated that from her discussions with MOOSE, they have indicated that they are working on a development plan. She "expects to have more details about their next steps in the coming month or two."

Last edited by Charles5; Jan 9, 2019 at 1:33 AM.
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  #2230  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 1:46 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by FutureWickedCity View Post
I am honestly disgusted at all you people ganging up like a pack of wolves on someone who has a visionary idea for the region.
I will not apologize for standing up for my community. Mr. Potvin wants to appropriate city assets and disadvantage existing and future transit users to help fund sprawl at a level never seen in this region. You think Barrhaven is bad? Imagine Ottawa surrounded by a dozen Barrhavens as every one of those nice charming towns you like becomes a shitty low density exurb. I don’t apologize for calling out, his shitty plans for my community out. And quite frankly, I am offended that you think I or anybody else should apologize for hurting Mr. Potvin’s feelings. F—k his feelings. If he can’t handle the heat, he’s free to stop posting here.

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Do you not think that Ottawa is going to expand greatly in the next decades? Do you not think we're going to end up with the same problems as Toronto?
No. And if you believe this, you’re a moron. The provincial forecasts for population don’t show Toronto like growth. So anybody who believes this is the future of the NCR should show what they know and what the planners for the city and province do not.

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Do you really think the existing model of everyone driving cars is sustainable?
No. Which is exactly why so many of us think Potvin’s plans are shit. He wants to turn those small towns into exurbs where people only use transit twice a day: to get to and from work. Beyond that, they’ll drive everywhere. Including to/from the MOOSE station.

I will add. You seem exceptionally naive. Ready to give Potvin the benefit of doubt, just because it’s “private sector”. Are you this naive in real life too? If so, I have a bridge you might be interested in...
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  #2231  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 3:21 AM
Joseph Potvin Joseph Potvin is offline
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Originally Posted by FutureWickedCity View Post
I've observed a mob mentality on this particular thread
@FutureWickedCity,

This is typical of discussion forums on topics that matter. Several participants here have contributed thoughtful critiques, and I have tried to answer where time permits. Not everyone appreciates, however, that this particular forum is not where all of the key information gets placed.

Evidently a small number here are putting a lot of time into a discussion thread entitled "Rural Commuter Rail" because they are dead set against "Rural Commuter Rail". For them it's not sufficient to express their view once or twice. Rather they clearly monitor this discussion practically every day and jump at any and every chance to attack or mock anyone who's actually interested in advancing "Rural Commuter Rail". Oh well, that's the personal style of some. I'm not sure why they don't want to associate their real identities with their stances. I dunno, do they even live in this region? At an in-person town hall meeting, normally a person will stand at the mike and say something "Hi, my name is John Doe, I work as a project manager and I've lived in Ward 2 for 10 years. In my view..." For some reason, the anonymous critics feel they ought to be heard with the same significance as those of people who are willing to be associated with what we have to say, even when they don't back up any statements with empirical references. Anonymity is fine when a discussion just involves a sharing of ideas or views. But when strong positions are being expressed and tied to "I live here" credentials, anonymity tends to undermine civility, as evidenced by this recent intervention.

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Originally Posted by FutureWickedCity View Post
I don't blame Mr. Potvin for getting emotional sometimes when he's being attacked from every direction.
Oh oh, I thought I was maintaining a pretty even-keel here.

Many of the challenges are not "attacks" but thoughtful challenges. Many such challenges are unanswerable in the time available to communicate here, or due to some information not available for sharing publicly. Often though, when I provide answers, these are not acknowledged. And some of the challengers don't feel any corresponding obligation to answer questions posed to them. Some do.

Anyways, I'll try to keep sharing information and responding if helpful.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

Last edited by Joseph Potvin; Jan 9, 2019 at 1:14 PM.
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  #2232  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 1:28 PM
Joseph Potvin Joseph Potvin is offline
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This is an interesting critique of Uber's business model:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/12/will-uber-survive-the-next-decade.html
Burning more than a $1B per quarter.

In contrast, MOOSE is setting up to be profitable early on. We're not asking anyone here to "believe" our business design can be profitable, sort of as one believes that their favourite sports team can win a series. Also, I'm not engaging in conversation here expecting that any potential sources of funds are lurking on this thread. I take some time to address important concerns raised. The issue of sprawl is an certainly an important one -- for some reason nobody here picked up on the "Compact City" literature, which provides a structured framework for that discussion.

Anyways. more information will be shared and discussed as MOOSE proceeds.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com
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  #2233  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 1:41 PM
Charles5 Charles5 is offline
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Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
I'm not sure why they don't want to associate their real identities with their stances. I dunno, do they even live in this region? At an in-person town hall meeting, normally a person will stand at the mike and say something "Hi, my name is John Doe, I work as a project manager and I've lived in Ward 2 for 10 years. In my view..."
Just for the record, I reside in Ottawa (Barrhaven). I'm an engineer by education, I've worked as an analyst and project manager for many years. I've resided in Ottawa for the past 17 years. I use public transit (OC Transpo) on a daily basis to commute to and from work in the downtown core. I own a vehicle.

My comments concerning MOOSE are purely based on personal opinion and interest. I have no business or financial interests in MOOSE, any other transportation systems or networks, or in any potential development opportunities.

I would be happy to exchange email addresses, last name, and even phone number with any one who wishes to do so. I can be contacted through the Private Messages feature on this forum.
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  #2234  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 2:32 PM
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FutureWickedCity FutureWickedCity is offline
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Perhaps the time hasn't come yet for this project, maybe we're still too small population-wise. But I'm convinced that in the future we will need such a project. If we started doing it now, I bet it would be a lot easier and cheaper than in 25 years. With or without the trains, these satellite communities are going to grow with commuters from the city as Ottawa rapidly expands. All those future commuters could clog up our roads and pollute the air, or they could be using clean and efficient trains. Why shouldn't taxpayers support this? I pay for highways that I never use.

The POW bridge and lack of support from Mayor Watson seem to be the main obstacles. There must be a way that MOOSE could harmonize with OC Transpo/STO.
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  #2235  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 4:28 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by FutureWickedCity View Post
Perhaps the time hasn't come yet for this project, maybe we're still too small population-wise. But I'm convinced that in the future we will need such a project. If we started doing it now, I bet it would be a lot easier and cheaper than in 25 years. With or without the trains, these satellite communities are going to grow with commuters from the city as Ottawa rapidly expands. All those future commuters could clog up our roads and pollute the air, or they could be using clean and efficient trains. Why shouldn't taxpayers support this? I pay for highways that I never use.

The POW bridge and lack of support from Mayor Watson seem to be the main obstacles. There must be a way that MOOSE could harmonize with OC Transpo/STO.
The biggest problem with any commuter rail plan (whether it is Moose or a public agency putting something together) is that the rail lines do not serve any major employment centres. Not downtown Ottawa, or Tunneys Pasture, or central Gatineau, or anywhere that commuters are going to want to go (the cluster around Mooneys Bay might attract a few people, if there was a stop there, but not many in the grand scheme of the region.

If there are no direct connections to these places, which also means connections to important transit hubs, you guarantee almost every single commuter will have to take at least one transit trip in order to get to there destination (even if you factor in all the expansion to LRT that is, and will be underway for the next 15 years). This is going to add a time and inconvenience to anyone that wants to use rail to commute.

The best commute is the fastest commute, or a really cheap commute. Commuter rail, if it is just put down on the existing network, will be slow as a lot of the track has speed restrictions, and because there are no direct connections to employment centres people want to go to. For people in exurban communities, the car will be much faster and given their commute is already long, how many are actually going to trade in that, for an even longer commute, simply because it would be on a train? And without knowing the fare structure of Moose, and how much it will cost them in other "property value related fees", that plan could be more expensive than driving.

There needs to be some serious investment in rail infrastructure just in the Ottawa and Gatineau city limits before commuter rail would make sense, be fast enough, and be attractive, in any form. Even with HFR it might it kind of, sort of, possible on the VIA line since speeds will be faster and there will be capacity for more train. But even that project still doesn't solve the fact that the lines don't take commuters where they want to go.
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  #2236  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 4:38 PM
Joseph Potvin Joseph Potvin is offline
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The biggest problem with any commuter rail plan (whether it is Moose or a public agency putting something together) is that the rail lines do not serve any major employment centres. Not downtown Ottawa, or Tunneys Pasture, or central Gatineau

Yes, because City of Ottawa and (former) City of Hull and the NCC tore all that out. And continues to do so. When does the destruction of major infrastructure stop?

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com
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  #2237  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 4:57 PM
Joseph Potvin Joseph Potvin is offline
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Originally Posted by FutureWickedCity View Post
There must be a way that MOOSE could harmonize with OC Transpo/STO.
There is. And far from disrupting their respective LRT plans, we'll be making them more useful and lucrative. Even in relation to the PoWB kerfuffle, we are on formal record as offering to finance the track re-connection and bridge refurbishment.

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com
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  #2238  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 4:59 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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There needs to be some serious investment in rail infrastructure just in the Ottawa and Gatineau city limits before commuter rail would make sense, be fast enough, and be attractive, in any form. Even with HFR it might it kind of, sort of, possible on the VIA line since speeds will be faster and there will be capacity for more train. But even that project still doesn't solve the fact that the lines don't take commuters where they want to go.
Absolutely, the infrastructure would need significant upgrades and that's what MOOSE has stated they would do. IIRC they said they would upgrade all tracks to be a minimum of class III (up to 97km/h) across the entire network.

HFR won't increase the top speeds of trains on the VIA corridor. Currently the tracks on those corridors are class V which allows speeds up to 145km/h (or 160km/h if an LRC locomotive with the tilt feature is used). HFR will increase frequency, and in turn capacity, but there are no plans to increase speeds yet.

Even without HFR, MOOSE would need to invest in increasing capacity anyways, which IIRC is something they've also stated that they would do.
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  #2239  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 5:09 PM
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Moose is a bit silly with its wacky financing schemes and urban sprawl plans but there's no reason why we shouldn't test out commuter rail. Much like the Trillium Line started as a proof-of-concept for urban rail in Ottawa, we could try launching a simple, cheap, low-stakes proof-of-concept for commuter rail.

The easiest possible test would be a pilot project commuter train from Casselman to Tremblay after LRT launches, with an agreement with both OC Transpo (for fare integration) and VIA (for track use). This would be fairly easy: it could use existing station infrastructure, and the relatively low frequency Ottawa-Montreal VIA service is less of an obstacle than the higher frequency Ottawa-Toronto VIA service which would make a pilot to Smiths Falls more difficult.

Just to experiment, I compared travel times for a hypothetical service like this with the existing commuter bus service in Casselman:

The existing commuter bus service leaves the park & ride at Casselman VIA station at exactly 6:30am, and arrives in Ottawa as follows:
-7:25: Albert/Metcalfe
-7:27: Albert/Bank
-7:30: Albert/Kent
-7:35: Portage
(https://www.417busline.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Route555_09.pdf)

VIA says it takes 25 minutes for a train to go from Casselman to Ottawa.

So suppose a train leaves Casselman at 6:30am, it would arrive at Tremblay at 6:55am. Now suppose there's a westbound LRT train leaving Tremblay at 6:59am; that 4 minute gap is plenty to comfortably make the transfer. (If there isn't one at 6:59, move the train schedule so it arrives 4 minutes before a Confederation Line train; you get the idea).

We don't have Confederation Line schedules ready, but let's assume it's 2 minutes between each station (that would be 24 minutes total end-to-end, and that's the time we keep hearing, so a pretty reasonable guess, I'd say). That Confederation Line train leaving Tremblay at 6:59am would thus arrive at Parliament at 7:09am and Lyon at 7:11am.. or some 15-20 minutes earlier than the bus gets downtown (see above)! So even with the transfer to LRT and no upgrades to the VIA tracks at all, a commuter train-LRT combo could get from Casselman to downtown considerably faster than existing bus service.

To get to Portage, you'd have to stay on the train until Pimisi (7:13am). The buses going north from Pimisi to Hull are frequent, every 2-3 minutes or so at the peak of rush, and it's 11 minutes from Pimisi to Portage, so say you'd get on a bus leaving Pimisi at 7:16am; you'd arrive at Place du Portage at around 7:27am... or 8 minutes earlier than if you had taken the bus. So the time savings aren't as great for heading to Hull but they're still there. There would be 2 transfers for this trip, but the ease of doing these transfers (high frequencies) and 8 minute overall time savings should be enough to still render it superior to the existing bus service.

To test the willingness of the public to pay for it, I'd select 40 commuters from the Casselman area as a test group who would initially make the trip for completely free (the pilot project budget would pay for the cost of running the commuter train and their OC Transpo fares). Then after a month or two of using the service, ask them how much they'd be willing to pay for it.
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  #2240  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 5:38 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin View Post
Yes, because City of Ottawa and (former) City of Hull and the NCC tore all that out. And continues to do so. When does the destruction of major infrastructure stop?

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com
I am not sure how far back you are referring to when it comes to ripping up rail infrastructure. But lets start from the 60's and go from there.

I know a lot of people lament that the rails along the canal were ripped up, terminating the use of Union Station. The same is true, to a less celebrated extent, of the lines that used to lead into Lebreton. But, you have to consider the context of the time. Rail travel was on the decline. Cars where on the rise. The city, and region, was even smaller than it is now. The NCC wanted to turn Ottawa into a proper, beautiful, capital city, and get rid of the industry that was right at the edge of the core. They moved the train station outside of the core, and built a big, modern building which was very much a symbol of the thinking at the time. The NCC was trying to build a modern capital city for Canada, a country that was coming into its own in the world, and they pursued a vision that made sense at that time. Yes, hindsight has lead us to question some of those choices, but it was over 50 years ago, and it is hard to fault them with the choices they made. And no amount of wistful thinking is going to change those choices.

Now, the 60's didn't see all the rail lines removed. There was still the line which is now the Trillium line, the POW bridge and the lines in and out of old Hull. And from the late 60's to the first few years of the 2000's, all that happened was their usefulness declined. They became less and less relevant for freight with each passing year until they started to be near as makes no difference, completely disused.

In the early 2000's, anyone could have come along with a proposal for those lines. VIA could have used them to cross into Hull. The City of Ottawa could have used them for commuter rail. Even the NCC had the opportunity to use them for interprovincial transportation issues.

At that time, the only group that was able to find any kind of viable use for them was OC Transpo, with their pilot project on the now Trillium Line. And though that corridor will not reach its full potential until it is upgraded to the same standard as the Confederation Line, it has still proved incredibly valuable. Not just for the inner city neighborhoods it serves and connects, but for the urban growth it is fueling, even in its limited state.

The rail lines that were built 100 years ago served a different need in a different city. Just because they are in the city, doesn't mean they have value today. OC Transpo changed the use of a line that was probably just a few years from being abandoned and torn up, and turned it into something valuable. But it worked because it actually served neighborhoods, a University, and connected with the Transitway, close to downtown (and served an emerging neighborhood at that end). If there had been any use for the POW bridge and the service those lines could bring to Gatineau, it would have been done by now. But it hasn't because that part of the line isn't particularly useful for inner city transit.

And as far as regional rail goes, the same is true. The lines that do still exist don't effectively serve the modern city. And maybe if you went all the way back to the 60's and stopped those lines from being ripped up, there would be infrastructure that might serve modern needs. But as I said, that was a different era, and those choices cant be undone. There is no cheap way to bring a modern rail network to Ottawa. The infrastructure that is being ripped up is old and antiquated. It is not major infrastructure.
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