PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Larry King

Yeah the civic association and maybe the society hill towers owners assoc hired lawyers to appeal. I don't think they have much of a case but there may have been some legitimate issues because Buccini Pollin submitted a slightly different plan and got a new conditional zoning permit. Gist of it is they want to delay as long as they can and I guess hope economic conditions change and the project gets dropped, long shot. They should be trying to work with the owners to get retail included in the project to liven up the area, but of course they won't try. I don't know what Buccini Pollin's plan for the hotel is but restaurant/retail in the new tower and another retail space along that dead stretch of walnut would be great.

Those who live in the Society Hill TOWERS who oppose this project? Talk about the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 balls on these people! How many NIMBYs opposed the construction of that complex? Why is it okay for them to live in a complex of three high rise towers but a proposed single tower almost next door to them is unacceptable?

I don't think any argument against the project has any merit but any opposition coming from the SH Towers should be immediately written off.

[iheartphilly]

^
hypocrites...

[DudeGuy]

I also know people who live in the towers, and they're against the project because 'It will block my view of the bridge.'

[mja]

Originally Posted by McBane

Those who live in the Society Hill TOWERS who oppose this project? Talk about the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 balls on these people! How many NIMBYs opposed the construction of that complex? Why is it okay for them to live in a complex of three high rise towers but a proposed single tower almost next door to them is unacceptable?

I don't think any argument against the project has any merit but any opposition coming from the SH Towers should be immediately written off.

Completely agreed that such arguments are completely illegitimate, but your shock & outrage that they're being advanced fundamentally misunderstands human behavior.

(Almost) EVERYONE becomes a NIMBY when it's in (or they think it's in) their interest.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Redddog

If it's by right, they can file all they want. It's not gonna do anything. Some "enterprising" lawyer is telling the Society Hill Association he can help and will get some hours out of this.

Winning a lawsuit wouldn't necessarily be the goal, just tying up the project in the courts for several years might be enough to get the developer to move to greener pastures. Any permit that the City issues and/or any ruling---like regarding zoning---can be challenged, and if the first court case doesn't go their way, they can appeal. But the developer, especially if they are connected politically, might be able to get a ruling from some judge that any lawsuit is just an attempt to delay the owners rights to profit from exercising their property rights, and not issue a stay to stop construction. This could be a battle of the heavy hitters, who has the deepest pockets and the more powerful list of phone numbers.

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

I would guess Paul Boni is the lawyer involved. Last I heard he still chairs the zoning committee of the Society Hill Civic Association.

Apropos of absolutely nothing, the Dragnonetti Act is a fascinating piece of legislation which states:

(a) Elements of action.--A person who takes part in the procurement, initiation or continuation of civil proceedings against another is subject to liability to the other for wrongful use of civil proceedings:

(1) he acts in a grossly negligent manner or without probable cause and primarily for a purpose other than that of securing the proper discovery, joinder of parties or adjudication of the claim in which the proceedings are based; and

(2) the proceedings have terminated in favor of the person against whom they are brought.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by Inquizative

"I think that for Philadelphia to truly succeed, a large subway expansion needs to occur. Something on the scale of what Chicago has."

I think this has been understood for many decades but Septa will come up with any other idea that is opposed to expanding the subway system. Septa claims it's too expensive but will blow money on speeding buses (Rapid Bus Lines) and any other idea but the dreaded subway expansion. I really believe it must be something other than the cost. I'm suspecting that there's a covert opposing force that is not permitting this, something that has a penchant for internal combustion engines.

SEPTA is just another money hole for Philadelphia and PA. I've been saying for the longest that SEPTA needs to expand it's subway system and restore the regional rial system to Allentown, Bethlehem Easton, Reading, Lancaster and especially West Chester. I mean, you can't even expand to friggin' WEST CHESTER FOR CHRIST'S SAKE???!!!!

Philadelphia doesn't need Rapid Bus Lines because with the exception of Broad St and the Blvd, many of the city's streets aren't that wide enough and if there's an expansion of bus service, I'd love to see the 60 expanded from 29th-Allegheny to Wissahickon TC for a two seat ride to KOP.

But when 2020 comes, I foresee Philadelphia falling down in the census ranking for biggest cities while cities such as San Antonio, San Diego, Dallas, San Jose, Austin, and Fort Worth surpasses Philadelphia either in 2020 or during the next decade.

Philadelphia has dragged it's feet for far too damn long, and now it's going to feel the burn of maintaining higher taxes, higher COL, higher QOL, and the inefficiencies that it continued to run and maintain. I'd love to return and live in the city, but a lot of events had allowed me to leave Philadelphia, many of them work related, and I'm not sure whether Philadelphia will be relevant this century the way it was for the past centuries.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

SEPTA is just another money hole for Philadelphia and PA. I've been saying for the longest that SEPTA needs to expand it's subway system and restore the regional rial system to Allentown, Bethlehem Easton, Reading, Lancaster and especially West Chester. I mean, you can't even expand to friggin' WEST CHESTER FOR CHRIST'S SAKE???!!!!

Philadelphia doesn't need Rapid Bus Lines because with the exception of Broad St and the Blvd, many of the city's streets aren't that wide enough and if there's an expansion of bus service, I'd love to see the 60 expanded from 29th-Allegheny to Wissahickon TC for a two seat ride to KOP.

But when 2020 comes, I foresee Philadelphia falling down in the census ranking for biggest cities while cities such as San Antonio, San Diego, Dallas, San Jose, Austin, and Fort Worth surpasses Philadelphia either in 2020 or during the next decade.

Philadelphia has dragged it's feet for far too damn long, and now it's going to feel the burn of maintaining higher taxes, higher COL, higher QOL, and the inefficiencies that it continued to run and maintain. I'd love to return and live in the city, but a lot of events had allowed me to leave Philadelphia, many of them work related, and I'm not sure whether Philadelphia will be relevant this century the way it was for the past centuries.

We talked about this awhile back: it isn't necessarily SEPTA's fault. They work very well with what they have. The state and federal governments have just ignored their pleas for money for so long that they have shrunk to a bare bones version of what they once were.

[Skintreesnail]

expanding SEPTA to Allentown, Bethlehem and Easton seem like a good idea. Was reading this article today actually that mentioned Schuylkill Yards, but also how the Lehigh valley is rapidly growing in both population and importance as a logistics center.

https://urbanland.uli.org/development-business/driving-office-redevelopment-in-the-northeast/

As for Philly expanding transit, I'm glad they're still talking about the waterfront trolley. The east-aligned ROW would be best so as to avoid traffic. They do something similar in Toronto along the waterfront. I also wish there was an option along the Schuylkill down to the Navy Yard, maybe using the High Line with terminations in the Navy Yard and Bala Cynwyd (since the Bala RR line is low usage and is primarily within the city). Could see stations in university city and at 30th street station behind the Bulletin building pretty easily.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Larry King

The developers and/or lawyers are presenting the project in a public meeting on 1/17 at 7pm at Pennsylvania Hospital. It's still a by-right project, meeting is a requirement prior to going to civic design review.

I was just shown some property be a realtor claiming that Bucini Pollin is out at the Sheraton and that scannapieco is in and will be trying to develop his tower there rather than the Ritz. I am very skeptical that this is true given what you said, but we’ll see what happens. Will be interested in hearing what happens at the 1/17 meeting. Maybe I will try to make it myself. Do you have a link/posting that shows it’s exact location at Pennsylvania Hospital?

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

I was just shown some property be a realtor claiming that Bucini Pollin is out at the Sheraton and that scannapieco is in and will be trying to develop his tower there rather than the Ritz. I am very skeptical that this is true given what you said, but we’ll see what happens. Will be interested in hearing what happens at the 1/17 meeting. Maybe I will try to make it myself. Do you have a link/posting that shows it’s exact location at Pennsylvania Hospital?

Actually re-reading the letter, it looks like LCOR is developing the project which leads me to believe it will be Class A rentals, whether that's in partnership with BP or Scannapeico... no idea. The only details I have are from official notice as a neighbor and emails from the civic association, details are pretty scarce aside from the zoning permit and the fact that BP owns the property.

Here's the notification letter: https://imgur.com/a/trRBWOP

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Larry King

Actually re-reading the letter, it looks like LCOR is developing the project which leads me to believe it will be Class A rentals, whether that's in partnership with BP or Scannapeico... no idea. The only details I have are from official notice as a neighbor and emails from the civic association, details are pretty scarce aside from the zoning permit and the fact that BP owns the property.

Here's the notification letter: https://imgur.com/a/trRBWOP

Cool. Thanks for posting this. If it IS Scannapieco, I'd be surprised if it's exclusively rentals. That's a lot of units, though. Perhaps he is breaking form and doing something more along the lines of 1911 Walnut and doing a rental/condo combo. Come to think of it, I think I'm in Houston for work that day so won't be able to go. If you make it, let us know what they say!

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Cool. Thanks for posting this. If it IS Scannapieco, I'd be surprised if it's exclusively rentals. That's a lot of units, though. Perhaps he is breaking form and doing something more along the lines of 1911 Walnut and doing a rental/condo combo. Come to think of it, I think I'm in Houston for work that day so won't be able to go. If you make it, let us know what they say!

Maybe BP is still involved, and the tower will contain rental, hotel, AND condo units. And retail/restaurants added to the base. Philly is long overdue for a project like that!

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Cool. Thanks for posting this. If it IS Scannapieco, I'd be surprised if it's exclusively rentals. That's a lot of units, though. Perhaps he is breaking form and doing something more along the lines of 1911 Walnut and doing a rental/condo combo. Come to think of it, I think I'm in Houston for work that day so won't be able to go. If you make it, let us know what they say!

Didn't he say that this tower was going to be taller than 500 Walnut?

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

expanding SEPTA to Allentown, Bethlehem and Easton seem like a good idea. Was reading this article today actually that mentioned Schuylkill Yards, but also how the Lehigh valley is rapidly growing in both population and importance as a logistics center.

https://urbanland.uli.org/development-business/driving-office-redevelopment-in-the-northeast/

As for Philly expanding transit, I'm glad they're still talking about the waterfront trolley. The east-aligned ROW would be best so as to avoid traffic. They do something similar in Toronto along the waterfront. I also wish there was an option along the Schuylkill down to the Navy Yard, maybe using the High Line with terminations in the Navy Yard and Bala Cynwyd (since the Bala RR line is low usage and is primarily within the city). Could see stations in university city and at 30th street station behind the Bulletin building pretty easily.

SEPTA is going to expand back to Quakertown, West Chester, and Phoenixville within the 2020s. This isn't a baseless prediction, this is educated: SEPTA is currently expanding up to Wawa, and the WCRR has promised to basically run shuttle service between Wawa and West Chester until SEPTA can expand further. In addition, SEPTA's recent budget reports have allocated thousands into evaluating a return to Quakertown (no further as it is now a trail). Phoenixville themselves are also clamoring for SEPTA's return to the point where they have set up multiple committies to determine the route and its feasibility. Currently, NS won't play ball, but I'm sure if actual capital can be gotten together a comprehensive plan satisfying both sides could be drawn.

As for your high line proposal, I myself have considered this. It would be very interesting to have an el-like subway connecting 30th st to south Philadelphia directly via the 21st(?) st viaduct. However, the high line itself has shown signs of aging, with Conrail recently replacing a span near the RR yard. With the second track gone, and with its status as a VERY active freight line, it is unlikely such a proposal would ever get past the preliminary stages.

I personally think that the best move for Philadelphia lies not in SEPTA, but in PATCO. If PATCO took over the rest of the existing center city loop, and dug out a tunnel to the Art Museum, it would give locals and tourists alike a reason to actually use the service. As it stands, PATCO is used by a lot of people from NJ, and a select few savy commuters who realize that it can take them directly from 8th and Market to Rittenhouse square. Now that PATCO will be having a joint card with SEPTA, it will be interesting to see ridership statistics as people realize how convenient it is. The Franklin Square stop reopening is also a great idea, and I am very happy PATCO is going through with it.
If PATCO was to continue with the existing tunnel alignment (go west to 20th, turn north and go to Arch) a spur could be built under the Parkway. I figure that this road of all in the city would be logistically the easiest to dig, as the tunnel can be dug underneath the inner lanes while the outer lanes are kept open. There could be stops at Logan Square and the Art Museum that would be used extensively by not only tourists but locals alike. Infrastructure wise it would be (relatively) easier too, as most of the properties abutting the Parkway are parks rather than actual buildings.

[iheartphilly]

Anyone know why SEPTA beside bus lines doesn't have rail on West Chester Pike in Havertown, Broomall, Newtown Square, Edgemont, Goshen, and West Chester. I heard there use to be light rail on Rt. 3 along these town. Anyone have a historical perspective?

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Anyone know why SEPTA beside bus lines doesn't have rail on West Chester Pike in Havertown, Broomall, Newtown Square, Edgemont, Goshen, and West Chester. I heard there use to be light rail on Rt. 3 along these town. Anyone have a historical perspective?

Public protest. In the 70s people thought the trolleys were ugly and got rid of the 103 and 104 trolley lines, serving Ardmore and West Chester respectively. Part of the track is a stub where the Pike starts, and the ROW of the 103 is used as a bus route in Havertown.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Public protest. In the 70s people thought the trolleys were ugly and got rid of the 103 and 104 trolley lines, serving Ardmore and West Chester respectively. Part of the track is a stub where the Pike starts, and the ROW of the 103 is used as a bus route in Havertown.

Thanks. I always had my suspicion due to the wide center median running along the Pike that trolleys ran on it. Ugly-I would of never guess. I was thinking along the lines that public transit was generally unpopular in the burbs back then and even when I-476 was proposed in in 1961 when public hearings began. Some on the really wealthy towns along the now blue route strongly opposed it. But, thank goodness it prevailed.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

SEPTA is going to expand back to Quakertown, West Chester, and Phoenixville within the 2020s. This isn't a baseless prediction, this is educated: SEPTA is currently expanding up to Wawa, and the WCRR has promised to basically run shuttle service between Wawa and West Chester until SEPTA can expand further. In addition, SEPTA's recent budget reports have allocated thousands into evaluating a return to Quakertown (no further as it is now a trail). Phoenixville themselves are also clamoring for SEPTA's return to the point where they have set up multiple committies to determine the route and its feasibility. Currently, NS won't play ball, but I'm sure if actual capital can be gotten together a comprehensive plan satisfying both sides could be drawn.

From your lips to SEPTA's plans would be nice. But----the expansion to Wawa has taken over 10 years and some where around $100M in costs for a single track over existing bed of only 3 miles long! Sure that costs includes a 600 car garage and a extensive rebuild of the track bed and some bridges, but still; that's a huge pile of money and time for only 3 miles. At that pace the cost to get back to the edge W. Chester would more then $500M, and unfortunately I don't see that happening.

If SEPTA had a large increase in funding I believe that their first items to address would continue to be dealing with long overdue repairs. SEPTA has shown no interest in actual expansion, but they are happy to make plans (KOP plans) as long as someone else pays for the planning. If outside parties arrange and pay for expansion, like Phoenixville is thinking of doing, SEPTA might be open to that, but only if the expansion doesn't cost them any money.

I'd like to see a area wide plan for the future and a method of increasing the funding base. But I doubt that the suburban counties will ever agree to a funding plan that they think might somehow benefit the City.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by City Wide

From your lips to SEPTA's plans would be nice. But----the expansion to Wawa has taken over 10 years and some where around $100M in costs for a single track over existing bed of only 3 miles long! Sure that costs includes a 600 car garage and a extensive rebuild of the track bed and some bridges, but still; that's a huge pile of money and time for only 3 miles. At that pace the cost to get back to the edge W. Chester would more then $500M, and unfortunately I don't see that happening.

If SEPTA had a large increase in funding I believe that their first items to address would continue to be dealing with long overdue repairs. SEPTA has shown no interest in actual expansion, but they are happy to make plans (KOP plans) as long as someone else pays for the planning. If outside parties arrange and pay for expansion, like Phoenixville is thinking of doing, SEPTA might be open to that, but only if the expansion doesn't cost them any money.

I'd like to see a area wide plan for the future and a method of increasing the funding base. But I doubt that the suburban counties will ever agree to a funding plan that they think might somehow benefit the City.

The Wawa extension took 10 years from the very start to the very finish, but construction only started in about 2016. In three years they have: replaced three bridges, torn up and re-lain all of the track, demolished the existing station, and started construction on the new one. That's a pretty impressive timeline. It is also double tracked IIRC.
The difference between the Wawa extension and the Quakertown/Phoenixville extensions is that the former was (mostly) abandoned, whereas the latter two are currently actively serving trains. The line to Wawa had to be entirely stripped, re-ballasted and relain, in addition to replacing three bridges. The Quakertown line is actively used by the Pennsylvania Northeastern railroad up to Telford, and the Phoenixville line is used by NS. Both (more so the NS line) are well maintained and have little to no work needed (the Quakertown line isn't in the best condition, but it will be a lot more easily repaired than the Wawa line).

If any track work needed to ever be done, I'm sure that both of the existing railroads wouldn't mind chipping in.