PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

In fact I was just going to post a link to that eye-opening article from last year (published a year ago yesterday). I believe there have been some followup pieces since.

The Most Expensive Mile of Subway Track on Earth
How excessive staffing, little competition,
generous contracts and archaic rules dramatically
inflate capital costs for transit in New York.

Exactly my point. Hopefully the Boring Company would help this, as if they can streamline the process it will make for less workers.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Exactly my point. Hopefully the Boring Company would help this, as if they can streamline the process it will make for less workers.

From what I've read (Tunnel News) Musk's actual TBM, tunnel boring machine, is really no big deal, nothing new. And he is not letting much info out to back up his usual big time claims and announcements. But to his credit he apparently is trying to re-invent the wheel, good luck on that, and maybe he can pull a rabbit out of his —. This might be a situation where the numerous existing manufactures of TBM's are keeping abreast of changes and pushing each other to come up with the latest and next improvements.
Apparently in subway construction when the tunnels are dug with TBM's 60%+ of the cost goes to digging out the stations, which are obviously much bigger then the tunnels between stations, and accessing the surface. So the tunneling cost itself (outside of NYC) isn't that bad.
I think Musk is trying to think much more broadly about how to use tunnels to move people around, and not just how to put a tunnel from point A to point B. Meaning-----if he is successful his 'system' might not be compatible with a conventional subway system.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by City Wide

From what I've read (Tunnel News) Musk's actual TBM, tunnel boring machine, is really no big deal, nothing new. And he is not letting much info out to back up his usual big time claims and announcements. But to his credit he apparently is trying to re-invent the wheel, good luck on that, and maybe he can pull a rabbit out of his —. This might be a situation where the numerous existing manufactures of TBM's are keeping abreast of changes and pushing each other to come up with the latest and next improvements.
Apparently in subway construction when the tunnels are dug with TBM's 60%+ of the cost goes to digging out the stations, which are obviously much bigger then the tunnels between stations, and accessing the surface. So the tunneling cost itself (outside of NYC) isn't that bad.
I think Musk is trying to think much more broadly about how to use tunnels to move people around, and not just how to put a tunnel from point A to point B. Meaning-----if he is successful his 'system' might not be compatible with a conventional subway system.

There's fixed cost with machinery, power, products. But, if I recall correctly in some article, there's an army of people offering their time and expertise to build the hyperloop without monetary compensation. However, this isn't the status quo business model. Another option is to have other countries (i.e., China) who has expertise in this area and with cheaper labor build out this kind of infrastructure, however, if fed grants are involved, it is a non-starter due to the political environ that we are in.

[GtownFriend]

You can see the new tower crane for River Walk. Also the Harper, and W.
[IMG]Wide view of Philadelphia skyline from South Street Bridge by Jacob G., on Flickr[/IMG]

[Tatts]

"Hopefully the Boring Company would help this, as if they can streamline the process it will make for less workers."
"If you used non-union workers you could likely get the price down."
"Another option is to have other countries (i.e., China) who has expertise in this area and with cheaper labor build out this kind of infrastructure..."
Why does anyone think that putting people out of work or paying them less is a good idea? At that rate there won't be any customers for the new subways, nobody buying houses, nobody buying cars, nobody taking vacations, nobody... The money paid to workers goes right back into the economy! Henry Ford understood that the best way to ensure a market for his cars was to pay his workers a better wage. If you strangle the economy by paying everyone $10 an hour, everybody loses except the owners/managers of the companies.
And the suggestion to hire a Chinese company to build infrastructure--in America--with some magical source of cheaper labor is a fantasy. Where is this source of cheaper labor? It's in China! But the construction is here.
Unions serve a purpose in jobs such as this--they provide skilled, trained, certified workers who build/weld/pour/finish according to spec. And they (and all Americans) deserve to be paid well for their skills. We need to fight this race to the bottom.
And, no, I'm not a union guy. I work with data and stare at a computer all day.

[acenturi]

Originally Posted by GtownFriend

You can see the new tower crane for Riverside. Also the Harper, and W.
[IMG][ximg]https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4889/45606830795_790ac0e151_b.jpg[/img]Wide view of Philadelphia skyline from South Street Bridge by Jacob G., on Flickr[/IMG]

<Image removed to save Forum space>
Ever since its completion 10 years ago, I cringe everytime I see a photo of the 1000 FT Grain Elevator.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

If the Boring Company can make it cheap, it could be done. Not to get political, but unions also come into play here. If you used non-union workers you could likely get the price down.

On a massive project such as the ones discussed here, labor costs are not that big of a deal relative the other costs. Land acquisition, utility relocation, TBMs, engineering and design, etc. are huge cost factors involved in building new subway tunnels. Shaving 30% off hourly wages is not going to make any significant difference on a 9 figure project. There was an article in the Inquirer yesterday about dredging the Delaware river which has cost almost $400M dollars and taken 2 years longer than expected. The special ship they use to dig up the river costs $200,000 per DAY to rent regardless of the hourly rate of the crew. There is no such thing as doing major infrastructure work on the cheap in 2018 in the US.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

Agreed, and if not by Elon Musk than by some other private sector company. That was the real difference between when the subway was built and today - that they were built by the private sector.
I think it's an exaggeration to say that workers' lives were considered disposable by planners. It's just that with construction practices as they were then, there was a certain number that you knew were going to die on the job. Just like in the military: soldiers' lives are not thought of as disposable, it's just that, going in, you know there will be a certain number of casualties in battle. That number goes down when innovation improves the way you do things. And the greatest vehicle for innovation is the private sector.

The broad street line was not built (funded I should say) by a private company. Most of the El was originally constructed by private companies. The railroad infrastructure absorbed by Amtrak, Conrail and various regional transit authorities was absolute garbage by the time the government started to intervene in the 60s and 70s to save what was left of the US passenger RR system. Private companies were struggling to maintain profits and did not invest in maintenance- one reason why many lines were eventually curtailed in the 80s and 90s.

The private sector still builds any new transit infrastructure- the public sector FUNDS and plans such expansions. No government entity can build a subway tunnel.

[Boku]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

There's fixed cost with machinery, power, products. But, if I recall correctly in some article, there's an army of people offering their time and expertise to build the hyperloop without monetary compensation. However, this isn't the status quo business model. Another option is to have other countries (i.e., China) who has expertise in this area and with cheaper labor build out this kind of infrastructure, however, if fed grants are involved, it is a non-starter due to the political environ that we are in.

Uh huh.

[Capsule F]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

In fact I was just going to post a link to that eye-opening article from last year (published a year ago yesterday). I believe there have been some followup pieces since.

The Most Expensive Mile of Subway Track on Earth
How excessive staffing, little competition,
generous contracts and archaic rules dramatically
inflate capital costs for transit in New York.

It was a truly amazing and infuriating article.

[MyDadBuiltThat]

Happy New Year everyone. And a huge, sincere thank you to everyone who provides content: fabulous photos, construction updates, inside info, public info, personal expertise, opinions, and anything I missed. Hoping for a steady and positive 2019. And a wish for at least one big and happy surprise announcement.

[jsbrook]

Happy New Year, everyone! Anyone heard anything recent on the Society Hill tower at the Sheraton? http://www.philly.com/philly/business/re...hill-tower-buccinni-pollin-20180817.html I understand that the Society Hill Civic Association opposes it (of course) and may be trying to tie the project up in litigation? But I haven't heard anything too recently.

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Happy New Year, everyone! Anyone heard anything recent on the Society Hill tower at the Sheraton? http://www.philly.com/philly/business/re...hill-tower-buccinni-pollin-20180817.html I understand that the Society Hill Civic Association opposes it (of course) and may be trying to tie the project up in litigation? But I haven't heard anything too recently.

The developers and/or lawyers are presenting the project in a public meeting on 1/17 at 7pm at Pennsylvania Hospital. It's still a by-right project, meeting is a requirement prior to going to civic design review.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Larry King

The developers and/or lawyers are presenting the project in a public meeting on 1/17 at 7pm at Pennsylvania Hospital. It's still a by-right project, meeting is a requirement prior to going to civic design review.

Good to hear. I had heard rumbles of impending litigation notwithstanding the by-right nature. I hope that's wrong.

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Good to hear. I had heard rumbles of impending litigation notwithstanding the by-right nature. I hope that's wrong.

Yeah the civic association and maybe the society hill towers owners assoc hired lawyers to appeal. I don't think they have much of a case but there may have been some legitimate issues because Buccini Pollin submitted a slightly different plan and got a new conditional zoning permit. Gist of it is they want to delay as long as they can and I guess hope economic conditions change and the project gets dropped, long shot. They should be trying to work with the owners to get retail included in the project to liven up the area, but of course they won't try. I don't know what Buccini Pollin's plan for the hotel is but restaurant/retail in the new tower and another retail space along that dead stretch of walnut would be great.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Larry King

Yeah the civic association and maybe the society hill towers owners assoc hired lawyers to appeal. I don't think they have much of a case but there may have been some legitimate issues because Buccini Pollin submitted a slightly different plan and got a new conditional zoning permit. Gist of it is they want to delay as long as they can and I guess hope economic conditions change and the project gets dropped, long shot. They should be trying to work with the owners to get retail included in the project to liven up the area, but of course they won't try. I don't know what Buccini Pollin's plan for the hotel is but restaurant/retail in the new tower and another retail space along that dead stretch of walnut would be great.

Agree. Typical approach of this civic association: delay and tie up in litigation to increase the expense of the project so that it is abandoned or because market conditions change. Hope they fail.

[iamrobk]

A friend of mine lives in Society Hill Towers and whether it has merit or not, based on this persons thoughts on the proposal (needless to say they are not in favor of it...), I would expect litigation.

[Jawnadelphia]

Maybe a dumb question -- and I understand Society Hill folks have deep pockets and are stubborn to change, but if this is a by-right project, and BP Group has all necessary permits, and will follow every procedural step (and side note: they are a big-time developer with very deep pockets themselves, who I don't think are afraid of litigation, or swings in the economy -- they built the Wilmington Riverfront when most people told them they were nuts, including during the Recession)....

so what exactly is the claim here, the lawsuit is going to say what?

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Jawnadelphia

Maybe a dumb question -- and I understand Society Hill folks have deep pockets and are stubborn to change, but if this is a by-right project, and BP Group has all necessary permits, and will follow every procedural step (and side note: they are a big-time developer with very deep pockets themselves, who I don't think are afraid of litigation, or swings in the economy -- they built the Wilmington Riverfront when most people told them they were nuts, including during the Recession)....

so what exactly is the claim here, the lawsuit is going to say what?

If it's by right, they can file all they want. It's not gonna do anything. Some "enterprising" lawyer is telling the Society Hill Association he can help and will get some hours out of this.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by Redddog

If it's by right, they can file all they want. It's not gonna do anything. Some "enterprising" lawyer is telling the Society Hill Association he can help and will get some hours out of this.

I would guess Paul Boni is the lawyer involved. Last I heard he still chairs the zoning committee of the Society Hill Civic Association.