PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Just curious if anyone knew whether the regional rail trains would fit in the bsl tunnel. Both are standard guage so just would need to replace third rail with catenary.

Who knows if they would fit, but replacing the electrical system is not small task...

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Just curious if anyone knew whether the regional rail trains would fit in the bsl tunnel. Both are standard guage so just would need to replace third rail with catenary.

see earlier discussion on this, there was a proposal to make the chestnut hill west line run in the bsl tunnel, but there was no talk of putting caternary lines in the tunnel. they would likely retrofit trains so that they could run from both caternary and third rail.

Mods: pretty please move this discussion to the transportation thread.

[Knight Hospitaller]

^and please make the transit thread part of the philly "list."

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

see earlier discussion on this, there was a proposal to make the chestnut hill west line run in the bsl tunnel, but there was no talk of putting caternary lines in the tunnel. they would likely retrofit trains so that they could run from both caternary and third rail.

Mods: pretty please move this discussion to the transportation thread.

Yeah, I saw that but was wondering if the opposite were possible to give the regional rail lines access to the Navy Yard in the future.

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Yeah, I saw that but was wondering if the opposite were possible to give the regional rail lines access to the Navy Yard in the future.

regional rail *would* have access to the navy yard if they did this with the trains and extended the subway there.

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

regional rail *would* have access to the navy yard if they did this with the trains and extended the subway there.

Ok, missed the part about retrofitting to run on both power sources. Didn't know that was possible.

[Urbanthusiat]

I've harped on this a few times but maybe a mod will have an answer this time.... but can we PLEASE get the transportation thread pinned to the projects and construction page? Would genuinely like to have transportation conversations in the proper location where it's much more accessible and easier for people to find.

Mods, if you're listening, I hope you are able to pin the transportation thread that is missing from our main page. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our users.

[mcgrath618]

I keep asking and it never happens. Hopefully this incredibly in depth discussion will lead to a change.

[eixample]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

So basically Brightline's (now Virgin Trains USA) business model.

I believe that using profits off of development of station-adjacent land is something that is common in East Asia, maybe Hong Kong or Tokyo, in addition to Brightline. But also there is the idea of value capture where increased value of private land near a new or improved transit station pays for the transit project. These ideas aren't specific to regional rail but because a regional rail overhaul isn't *that* expensive you could certainly imagine it paying for itself in some form or other.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by Londonee

How about we start with just a few small outposts? My brother works for Google and was blown away when he came to visit that a city of Philly's size does not have a small Google office where he could bang out some work for a few days. Outside of CA and NYC, they have small outposts in Pittsburgh, Detroit, Atlanta, Chapel Hill, Boston, DC, Chicago, Austin, Denver...

As I said before, it's tough to justify an outpost here with NYC swallowing everything in its way up - it's the ultimate black hole. Still, consulting and Big 5 firms all have HQ in NYC but size-able outposts in Philly simply b/c the market is so big here, and w/ Penn, Drexel and Princeton all so close we really should see a better outcome in this area. I've complained about this for years but we really are the worst marketed big city in America. We have zero brand recognition aside from Rocky, some bell, and loud sports fans. Super.

Anyways, if NYC was 200 miles away, like it is from Boston - our situation would be a bit different.

Here's some good insight from a former all-star investment banker:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/critical-factors-beyond-nyc-wage-150856748.html

Philly should take note and borrow all the ideas from this article....

And Happy Holidays to all the forumers here. We had a good year talking about builds and a little bit of everything else. Lots of good discussions were had. Let's hope the economy doesn't derail any projects in the pipeline or proposed for 2019 so that we can keep these discussions going. I'm especially looking forward to the Laurel build.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Just curious if anyone knew whether the regional rail trains would fit in the bsl tunnel. Both are standard guage so just would need to replace third rail with catenary.

I'm almost certain that Amtrak ran trains down the BSL to the Vet for Army/Navy games. And Amtrak never used a 3rd rail!
https://history.amtrak.com/archives/army-navy-game-flyer-1970s-1

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by City Wide

I'm almost certain that Amtrak ran trains down the BSL to the Vet for Army/Navy games. And Amtrak never used a 3rd rail!
https://history.amtrak.com/archives/army-navy-game-flyer-1970s-1

They ran special trains to JFK Stadium, but most certainly did NOT use the BSL tracks. Rail photographer/historian Michael Froio has the specifics on his blog, including a trackage map.

http://michaelfroio.com/blog/tothegame

…and a few more logistical details here:

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/army-navy.php

[mcgrath618]

Glad to see fellow skyscraper nerds around here are also railfans.
Did the GG1s use the catenary on the existing high line structure over 25th st?

[Nova08]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Glad to see fellow skyscraper nerds around here are also railfans.
Did the GG1s use the catenary on the existing high line structure over 25th st?

Yes. The Pennsylvania Railroad ran extensive special/charter trains for the Army Navy game directly to the current freight yard on the other side of 95. From the north and west they traversed the High Line past 30th st and crossed the river at Arsenal onto the south philly viaduct. Trains from the south also crossed at Arsenal, obviously they did not traverse the high line.


I'm all for some new/fresh ideas on reinvigorating the Septa network, but I hope everyone realizes all of these ideas are $500+ million projects if not a billions.

I highly doubt Septa's heavy rail will ever run on the rapid network (BSL). I'm sure a few examples of this exist, but I cannot imagine there are many out there. The trains are completely different in turning radius, acceleration, average speed, height of cars, weight, length, height of doors(?). Even if some of the structural things were accounted for, it would be like placing a mid-tier sports car in the middle of a bunch of USPS trucks.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Nova08

Yes. The Pennsylvania Railroad ran extensive special/charter trains for the Army Navy game directly to the current freight yard on the other side of 95. From the north and west they traversed the High Line past 30th st and crossed the river at Arsenal onto the south philly viaduct. Trains from the south also crossed at Arsenal, obviously they did not traverse the high line.


I'm all for some new/fresh ideas on reinvigorating the Septa network, but I hope everyone realizes all of these ideas are $500+ million projects if not a billions.

I highly doubt Septa's heavy rail will ever run on the rapid network (BSL). I'm sure a few examples of this exist, but I cannot imagine there are many out there. The trains are completely different in turning radius, acceleration, average speed, height of cars, weight, length, height of doors(?). Even if some of the structural things were accounted for, it would be like placing a mid-tier sports car in the middle of a bunch of USPS trucks.

Not to mention the tunnels are literally too shallow to support catenary.

[Gonzo the Great]

And now for something a little bit different . So from my planet to yours , to all
that celebrate the spirit of the holidays , Merry Christmas .... weather you like it , or not .

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Nova08

Yes. The Pennsylvania Railroad ran extensive special/charter trains for the Army Navy game directly to the current freight yard on the other side of 95. From the north and west they traversed the High Line past 30th st and crossed the river at Arsenal onto the south philly viaduct. Trains from the south also crossed at Arsenal, obviously they did not traverse the high line.


I'm all for some new/fresh ideas on reinvigorating the Septa network, but I hope everyone realizes all of these ideas are $500+ million projects if not a billions.

I highly doubt Septa's heavy rail will ever run on the rapid network (BSL). I'm sure a few examples of this exist, but I cannot imagine there are many out there. The trains are completely different in turning radius, acceleration, average speed, height of cars, weight, length, height of doors(?). Even if some of the structural things were accounted for, it would be like placing a mid-tier sports car in the middle of a bunch of USPS trucks.

Yes, its not going to happen. There is very little clearance above the trains in the tunnel and you need several feet of clearance to allow space for a pantograph and trolley wire. A subway tunnel is not built to allow for overhead contact to draw power. Aside from the K of P line (which isn't all that likely at this point) people should expect much more modest improvements to the transit network- not multi billion dollar dream projects.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Nova08

Yes. The Pennsylvania Railroad ran extensive special/charter trains for the Army Navy game directly to the current freight yard on the other side of 95. From the north and west they traversed the High Line past 30th st and crossed the river at Arsenal onto the south philly viaduct. Trains from the south also crossed at Arsenal, obviously they did not traverse the high line.


I'm all for some new/fresh ideas on reinvigorating the Septa network, but I hope everyone realizes all of these ideas are $500+ million projects if not a billions.

I highly doubt Septa's heavy rail will ever run on the rapid network (BSL). I'm sure a few examples of this exist, but I cannot imagine there are many out there. The trains are completely different in turning radius, acceleration, average speed, height of cars, weight, length, height of doors(?). Even if some of the structural things were accounted for, it would be like placing a mid-tier sports car in the middle of a bunch of USPS trucks.

If this were to happen isn't the better idea not to run current regional rail cars on the rapid transit tracks, but to run rapid transit vehicles on the regional rail tracks? Effectively the model that the DC Metro is - where your "regional rail" is basically a subway system with the headways and car designs to match. I mean, heck, Patco is effectively S. Jersey's regional rail network that utilizes this concept. It kind of feels like the old, traditional heavy, slow, regional rail cars are out-moded by the nimbler variant subway-style like you see in London and DC.

Maybe not every train line would need this - but ones like the Paoli-Thorndale line would see dramatic improvement in service quality if they switched to more nimble, quicker vehicles with 15-20 minute headways and multiple door exit/entry on raised platforms. With stops basically every mile or two once you hit Bryn Mawr the plodding, slow acceleration, slow loading train network is just anathema to logical public transportation ideas.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Londonee

If this were to happen isn't the better idea not to run current regional rail cars on the rapid transit tracks, but to run rapid transit vehicles on the regional rail tracks? Effectively the model that the DC Metro is - where your "regional rail" is basically a subway system with the headways and car designs to match. I mean, heck, Patco is effectively S. Jersey's regional rail network that utilizes this concept. It kind of feels like the old, traditional heavy, slow, regional rail cars are out-moded by the nimbler variant subway-style like you see in London and DC.

Maybe not every train line would need this - but ones like the Paoli-Thorndale line would see dramatic improvement in service quality if they switched to more nimble, quicker vehicles with 15-20 minute headways and multiple door exit/entry on raised platforms. With stops basically every mile or two once you hit Bryn Mawr the plodding, slow acceleration, slow loading train network is just anathema to logical public transportation ideas.

Nope. The BSL cars are: 1) Not built for the turns and grades and speeds of the Regional Rail and 2) High level platform only. They could not serve the majority of regional rail stations, being that they require stepwells.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Nope. The BSL cars are: 1) Not built for the turns and grades and speeds of the Regional Rail and 2) High level platform only. They could not serve the majority of regional rail stations, being that they require stepwells.

In terms of the Paoli Thorndale context I find the notion that subway cars couldn't navigate the tracks almost impossible to believe. And several (most?) stations along that route already have raised platforms. Regardless, of course there would have to be retrofitting work done to the existing infrastructure... including 3rd rail, etc.

It's less about a perfect fit at the moment and more about utilizing existing infrastructure and ROWs to modernize, improve and expand service for the 21st century.