PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Londonee

How about we start with just a few small outposts? My brother works for Google and was blown away when he came to visit that a city of Philly's size does not have a small Google office where he could bang out some work for a few days. Outside of CA and NYC, they have small outposts in Pittsburgh, Detroit, Atlanta, Chapel Hill, Boston, DC, Chicago, Austin, Denver...

As I said before, it's tough to justify an outpost here with NYC swallowing everything in its way up - it's the ultimate black hole. Still, consulting and Big 5 firms all have HQ in NYC but size-able outposts in Philly simply b/c the market is so big here, and w/ Penn, Drexel and Princeton all so close we really should see a better outcome in this area. I've complained about this for years but we really are the worst marketed big city in America. We have zero brand recognition aside from Rocky, some bell, and loud sports fans. Super.

Anyways, if NYC was 200 miles away, like it is from Boston - our situation would be a bit different.

+1 especially the bold text

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Tech moves fast! 5 years ago is like 15 in any other industry. I think having Google (established in 1998 in CA) in NYC help establish full validation of a tech industry and being a household name. I think they planted their flag there in 2012 or even early. Don't have exact date. And, they are expanding in Hudson Yards with $1 Billion in investments. And the programs you pointed out too. So, it is way more than perception because they were able to find tech employees say from other companies located in and around NYC to fill the job vacancies when they went on a huge hiring spree to establish their presence in NYC.

That's my point. Tech hasn't been a thing in NY for that long.

I moved here (to NYC) in 2012 for a job. Nobody in NY worked in tech at that time. Google was barely a blip on the radar with what felt like a boutique office on a floor of Chelsea Market.

We really need just a presence...a seed. And the rest will take care of itself. Sundar Pichai would probably rather hang out in NYC when he goes to the East Coast for work...but I guarantee you there are probably not an insignificant number of his employees, even if they're making $150k, $200k, or $250K a year, who on the whole would rather live in a place like Philadelphia. Real estate in NYC is still $1,000-$4,000 a square foot to plant your flag anywhere within a 35 minute subway ride of Midtown or Downtown Manhattan.

Even on $250K, you're positively middle class in NYC. Especially if you didn't already have a foothold in the city prior to the most recent real estate cycle.

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Even on $250K, you're positively middle class in NYC. Especially if you didn't already have a foothold in the city prior to the most recent real estate cycle.

yeah, that's what I don't get about the Amazon HQ2 decision. they were saying the average salary was 100k I think, which really doesn't go very far in NYC. DC is just as bad. It might make sense for leadership, but for their average employee, it's going to be a pretty low quality of life. Maybe they want them to live at the office though.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

yeah, that's what I don't get about the Amazon HQ2 decision. they were saying the average salary was 100k I think, which really doesn't go very far in NYC. DC is just as bad. It might make sense for leadership, but for their average employee, it's going to be a pretty low quality of life. Maybe they want them to live at the office though.

If you're a 22yo college grad and you have a starting salary of $90k plus options/benefits - that's a pretty cool jump to life. Amazon is known as being a bit of a chop-shop. They work young kids hard. You get in, vest, get out.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

The Chestnut Hill East serves a denser portion of the Northwest, so it would be a much better candidate for conversion into rapid transit. Plus, as you mentioned, the flying junction at Erie already exists. Adding the CHE to our subway system would be as easy as placing a mile-long tunnel under Germantown Avenue, with stops at Hunting Park, Nicetown (at Nicetown Park), and Wayne Junction (Germantown and Windram Avenues).

The Fox Chase Line could also be added to our existing system. If SEPTA were to build a new elevated segment of the El north of York-Dauphin via Front Street and run tracks along an abandoned ROW, North and Northeast Philly could receive a new level of service.

Originally Posted by skyscraper

As far as the CHW becoming the subway, I thought I read that they would not have to change the track gauge, and that was the beauty of the proposal. I could be wrong, can't recall where I read that.

Well I'll be damned, the BSL is on standard gauge. Weird that the MFL and Subway/Surface lines are PA Trolley Gauge whereas the BSL is standard gauge.

Originally Posted by skyscraper

Love this map, I think the scale of subway service shown here is exactly what is needed. I might differ with some of the choices of routes, such as I hate the idea of the PATCO line having exclusive service to Rittenhouse square and the airport. I think the PATCO line should end at 8th and Market and then a SEPTA line should pick it up from there, but that is nitpicking.

I agree with your points on PATCO. I think now that we have the Airport line it's largely unnecessary.
Fun fact, before PATCO existed, that was indeed a SEPTA subway. Broad/Ridge Spur trains would either run to 16th and Locust or over the bridge into Camden.

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Well I'll be damned, the BSL is on standard gauge. Weird that the MFL and Subway/Surface lines are PA Trolley Gauge whereas the BSL is standard gauge.

PTC built and operated the trolley lines first and then adopted it for the El mostly because it was what they already used. The BSL was built and is still owned by the city. At the time the city was more interested in potential compatibility with the heavy rail network than with the existing PTC system.

[Radio5]

Originally Posted by Londonee

How about we start with just a few small outposts? My brother works for Google and was blown away when he came to visit that a city of Philly's size does not have a small Google office where he could bang out some work for a few days. Outside of CA and NYC, they have small outposts in Pittsburgh, Detroit, Atlanta, Chapel Hill, Boston, DC, Chicago, Austin, Denver...

As I said before, it's tough to justify an outpost here with NYC swallowing everything in its way up - it's the ultimate black hole. Still, consulting and Big 5 firms all have HQ in NYC but size-able outposts in Philly simply b/c the market is so big here, and w/ Penn, Drexel and Princeton all so close we really should see a better outcome in this area. I've complained about this for years but we really are the worst marketed big city in America. We have zero brand recognition aside from Rocky, some bell, and loud sports fans. Super.

Anyways, if NYC was 200 miles away, like it is from Boston - our situation would be a bit different.

The marketing is really one of the main things that philly can easily improve on because it already has a lot going for it. Being from LA, I don't recall talking once about philadelphia (unless it was about AI) nor did any of my friends or family visit, but we did go to DC, NYC and Boston. When I went to philly for the first time, I was blown away how amazing it was. The trolly system alone should be its own marketing campaign. Everyone knows san fran's trolly, nobody knows about Philly's and people would eat that up if it was marketed well.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Thats an "if", not a "when". The entire project is contingent on winning a federal grant to offset half the cost. They haven't even applied yet. To my knowledge there has been no discussion of a "plan B" if the money doesn't come through. In fact, it's not even totally clear how the other half would be funded. SEPTA can't afford to fund it solely from it's capital budget with all the other needs out there.

very true. SEPTA is just fine with planning, they'll gladly plan for anything because it's cheap and usually done using some bodies else's money---foundations, feds, grants, etc. It helps keep that office open and doing something. But SEPTA has shown no interest in expanding their system, especially plans that include heavy up front construction costs. SEPTA just took over 3 years to 'plan' a fairly short bus route and there's still no timetable for it to start running. The only chance of this KOP branch happening is if some other group----maybe the mall owners---or a group of local gov'ts, or some politician got firmly behind the idea and pushed hard for multi number of years.
Personally I think the high speed line should also be extended south to the airport. That way it would be running between two big employment centers and locations people go to on a regular basis. But that would take another 10 years of planning...…….

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by City Wide

very true. SEPTA is just fine with planning, they'll gladly plan for anything because it's cheap and usually done using some bodies else's money---foundations, feds, grants, etc. It helps keep that office open and doing something. But SEPTA has shown no interest in expanding their system, especially plans that include heavy up front construction costs. SEPTA just took over 3 years to 'plan' a fairly short bus route and there's still no timetable for it to start running. The only chance of this KOP branch happening is if some other group----maybe the mall owners---or a group of local gov'ts, or some politician got firmly behind the idea and pushed hard for multi number of years.
Personally I think the high speed line should also be extended south to the airport. That way it would be running between two big employment centers and locations people go to on a regular basis. But that would take another 10 years of planning...…….

The issue with that is where the ROW would go. Right now you have the NHSL running into 69th. It can't really be expanded any further south for that reason. 69th St Terminal acts as a barrier for any further push south. The only thing I could potentially see happening (and even then it's a long shot) is connecting the NHSL to the abandoned Millbourne Branch of the Media Line, and running trains down through the Media line to the airport. That is literally the only way the NHSL could be connected to the airport, and even then it makes no sense.
The BSL, however, should absolutely be connected to the airport.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Is he referring to the NHSL or the PATCO high speed line? I think that dream system map showed PATCO going to the airport area.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

Is he referring to the NHSL or the PATCO high speed line? I think that dream system map showed PATCO going to the airport area.

He's referring to the NHSL, based on context. I guess technically "speed line" can apply to both.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

He's referring to the NHSL, based on context. I guess technically "speed line" can apply to both.

Yes, I was referring to the Norristown High Speed line. Great name for a trolley service that tops out at maybe 45MPH!
I've got no idea, in terms of engineering, how to extend the line to the airport, I'm just saying that such a line in terms of the area it serves, would make sense and might very well be well used. And if it were ever extended to KOP, then even more so. Apparently the KOP mall is a tourist attraction for foreign tourists.
If PATCO decided to go to the airport my suggestion would be to continue underground below the river and then use the present tracks to the airport. That way Philly passengers could have more trains, less headway, in getting to the airport.
Hay, all these thoughts and plans we're kicking around are just dreams, so I'm not sweating the practical details.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by City Wide

Yes, I was referring to the Norristown High Speed line. Great name for a trolley service that tops out at maybe 45MPH!
I've got no idea, in terms of engineering, how to extend the line to the airport, I'm just saying that such a line in terms of the area it serves, would make sense and might very well be well used. And if it were ever extended to KOP, then even more so. Apparently the KOP mall is a tourist attraction for foreign tourists.
If PATCO decided to go to the airport my suggestion would be to continue underground below the river and then use the present tracks to the airport. That way Philly passengers could have more trains, less headway, in getting to the airport.
Hay, all these thoughts and plans we're kicking around are just dreams, so I'm not sweating the practical details.

The NHSL used to hit 90+ mph in the days of the bullets. The FRA restricted it to 75 MPH just before the new ABB cars were purchased, and then a collision occurred at 69th recently which lowered them even further. Trackwork going on right now has also lowered them to 25 mph in some sections.
When the KOP extension and the track replacement is done we should see them get back to 75 mph again.

[HamiltonPlanning]

Hello folks! I am visiting Philadelphia next week from Hamilton, Ontario, Canada! My girlfriend and I are both Urban Planning students, looking to check out Philly over the holidays! I am looking for suggestions of cool planning projects to check out while were here!? Any suggestions would be great! Thanks, I am looking forward to seeing Philly!

[Nova08]

Originally Posted by HamiltonPlanning

Hello folks! I am visiting Philadelphia next week from Hamilton, Ontario, Canada! My girlfriend and I are both Urban Planning students, looking to check out Philly over the holidays! I am looking for suggestions of cool planning projects to check out while were here!? Any suggestions would be great! Thanks, I am looking forward to seeing Philly!

While not a current planning project, if you have never been to Philly I definitely recommend visiting all of the squares. It was how the city was planned some 300 years ago. Unfortunately the Christmas Village in one of the squares closes up shop the 24th.

The Stories Behind Philly's Squares
https://www.wheretraveler.com/philadelphia/play/stories-behind-phillys-squares

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Nova08

While not a current planning project, if you have never been to Philly I definitely recommend visiting all of the squares. It was how the city was planned some 300 years ago. Unfortunately the Christmas Village in one of the squares closes up shop the 24th.

The Stories Behind Philly's Squares
https://www.wheretraveler.com/philadelphia/play/stories-behind-phillys-squares

Christmas Village is not on one of the squares. That's JFK Plaza/Love Park.


Hamilton, https://www.visitphilly.com/ is a good resource. The neighborhoods south of Market Street, Society Hill, Washington Square West, Rittenhouse, and Fitler Square neighborhoods are all gems, more or less built out between the 18th and 19th centuries.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by PHL10

Christmas Village is not on one of the squares. That's JFK Plaza/Love Park.

True, but Dilworth Plaza itself is featuring a Made in Philadelphia Holiday Market (thru Jan 1), plus the Ice Rink, Wintergarden and light show.

https://www.visitphilly.com/things-to-do/attractions/the-rothman-ice-rink-at-dilworth-park/

[eixample]

Lurking beneath all these discussions of proposed and existing transit lines is zoning. We want to build new rapid transit lines near places with high density (super expensive but with high ridership guaranteed) and/or dramatically increase service on rail lines with low ridership, like regional rail or the nhsl that predominantly run through lower density areas (much much cheaper but not incredibly dramatic increased ridership in some cases). What I would propose is we take the cheaper (and economically feasible) option of boosting regional rail to 3 or 4 trains per hour and then selectively upzone areas near the train lines. Upzoning would be easy-ish in some cases (Norristown, Chester, Wayne Junction, North Philly could all probably be upzoned without tremendous pushback) and downright impossible in other cases without a state or federal mandate. But just imagine all those septa parking lots were turned into 4 or 6 story apartment buildings with retail and offices sitting right next to a train that runs every 15 mins from 6 am to 2 am (and imagine SEPTA's new stream of revenue) - you could live in Media and work at an office in Conshohocken and shop in Center City and never get in a car. I know that is difficult to foresee but that is what I fantasize about instead of new subway lines criss crossing the city.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by eixample

Lurking beneath all these discussions of proposed and existing transit lines is zoning. We want to build new rapid transit lines near places with high density (super expensive but with high ridership guaranteed) and/or dramatically increase service on rail lines with low ridership, like regional rail or the nhsl that predominantly run through lower density areas (much much cheaper but not incredibly dramatic increased ridership in some cases). What I would propose is we take the cheaper (and economically feasible) option of boosting regional rail to 3 or 4 trains per hour and then selectively upzone areas near the train lines. Upzoning would be easy-ish in some cases (Norristown, Chester, Wayne Junction, North Philly could all probably be upzoned without tremendous pushback) and downright impossible in other cases without a state or federal mandate. But just imagine all those septa parking lots were turned into 4 or 6 story apartment buildings with retail and offices sitting right next to a train that runs every 15 mins from 6 am to 2 am (and imagine SEPTA's new stream of revenue) - you could live in Media and work at an office in Conshohocken and shop in Center City and never get in a car. I know that is difficult to foresee but that is what I fantasize about instead of new subway lines criss crossing the city.

So basically Brightline's (now Virgin Trains USA) business model.

[Skintreesnail]

Just curious if anyone knew whether the regional rail trains would fit in the bsl tunnel. Both are standard guage so just would need to replace third rail with catenary.