The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[RaginRonic]

I just saw that small bit about some changes for Saint John Transit in the North End....this is how I'd do that.


Millidgeville Route Proposal

Route stays entirely in Millidgeville with new transit hub at Regional Hospital for connections to Saint John Uptown Core and major areas in West and East Saint John.

Route from Sandy Point Rd. @ Foster Thurston Dr, to Sandy Point Rd. @ Tucker Park Rd. eliminated.

To Sandy Point Rd. @ Foster Thurston Dr.

Start at UNB
To Reg. Hospital South Entrance Connection Hub
To University Ave.
To Millidge Ave.
To Boars Head Rd.
To Woodward Ave.
To Ray St.
To Black St.
To Daniel Ave.
To Millidge Ave.
To Kennebecasis Dr.
To Sandy Point Rd. at Foster Thurston Dr.
NEW-End at new TurnAround Loop at Rockwood Park Upper Lot at SP Rd.-FT Dr. Corner(a new build needed)

To Regional Hospital

Start at TurnAround Loop mentioned above
To Sandy Point Rd. at Foster Thurston Dr.
To Kennebecasis Dr.
To Millidge Ave.
To Daniel Ave.
To Black St.
To Ray St.
To Woodward Ave.
To Boars Head Rd.
To Millidge Ave.
To University Ave.
To Reg. Hospital South Entrance Connection Hub
End at UNB


North End Route Proposal

Regular service returned to North End(no more express time schedules)

North End Route no longer combined with Millidgeville.

Route fully representative of North End.

Route entirely within North End; uptown connections provided at Place 400(going south) and Main St. @ Lansdowne Ave.(going north)

To Millidge Ave. @ Belleview Rd.

Start at Place 400
To Portland St.
To Hilyard St.
To Simonds St.
To Main St.
To Lansdowne Ave.
To Visart St.
To Churchill Blvd.
To Somerset St.
To Lime Kiln Rd.
To Millidge Ave.

To Place 400

To Belleview Ave.
To Pokiok Rd.
To Bridge St.
To Main St.
To Albert St.
To Newman St.
To Adelaide St.
To Harrington St.
To Visart St.
To Lansdowne Ave.
End at Place 400


Would that work for transit routing in that part of the city?

[Fischbob]

The biggest issue with the current Millidgeville route is that a lot of resources are spent serving the sparsely populated Sandy Point Road/Kennebecasis Drive loop. This in turn causes frequency to suffer, which further drives down ridership on the route. Cut this section, and more possibilities start to open up. I do think the Hospital/UNB makes sense as a northern termination point for the route since it serves as a strong anchoring trip generator, and I would keep the current alignment through central Millidgeville otherwise (mostly) intact.

To bring the focus back to the North End, here are a couple potential alignments that might improve the neighbourhood's transit situation if it's paired with greater frequency (say, 20-30 minute headways). In both cases I've opted to keep Sobeys as a key waypoint since it's an important amenity and connection point to other routes.



The red alignment pretty much mirrors the current route through the North End except the zigzag along Newman/Albert streets is removed. This small realignment should imprive the legibility of the route overall, which is important in attracting more spontaneous ridership.

The blue alignment departs from the well-trodden Main Street corridor and instead approaches the Uptown via Somerset. If paired with targeted intensification at Joyce's Corner and Somerset/Magazine, there is potential to generate new ridership along this section.

Overall, the routing changes I'm proposing within the neighbourhood proper aren't that radical. The real difference maker here would be increasing the level of service (frequency and operating hours) to make it a more viable transportation option throughout the day.

[McKay]

Originally Posted by Scarface

The group is gone but they had a lot of Post calling for people to be moved out of the north end into other areas, and turn it almost into a blank slate to rebuild.

Another go at urban renewal, really.

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by McKay

Another go at urban renewal, really.

Every chance people have to call for urban renewal. They will do just that.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Fischbob

I'd love to hear others' thoughts about how the Old North End might be turned around.

It's funny you post this today - I just got back in for a few days and made a point of going through the North End to see what's going on. As it turns out: a lot of demolition!

It's a shame whenever buildings have to be removed but a lot of the buildings being demolished are beyond reasonable points of saving. The amounts needed to renovate and bring up to standard are not much less than those needed for a new build on the same property, I would think. There's not much point to saving most of them, at least IMO.

Originally Posted by Scarface

The group is gone but they had a lot of Post calling for people to be moved out of the north end into other areas, and turn it almost into a blank slate to rebuild.

A Facebook group that openly spoke down about people on social assistance? Colour me shocked.

The neighbourhood (say, Bridge-Main-Adelaide stretch), as Fischbob points out, has a very good grid system and is very central to many amenities in the city. There's a tremendous opportunity for gentrification and rebuild. The city can do very well with this area if it is rebuilt properly with strong planning and foresight. I'd hate to see suburban style builds (additional greenery, parking, setbacks, etc.). The grid is built for a tight, dense buildup of lots and properties. Basically, North End has the potential to be what the Uptown can't be: new builds with no regard for maintaining consistent styling or heritage.

Originally Posted by Fischbob

I'd also like to see a return of some more mixed use elements to the Old North End, along key legacy corridors like Adelaide and Main.

Main street is ripe for a return to mixed-use commercial/residential. The nearest amenities are at Lansdowne (Sobeys/Shoppers/etc.) and are a decent walk with how Adelaide is separated from Lansdowne for most of its length. There's good potential for some decent, medium-density, mixed-use developments along the main corridors. It would be great to see a rejuvenated Adelaide and Main, especially around the Douglas/Lansdowne area.

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by JHikka

A Facebook group that openly spoke down about people on social assistance? Colour me shocked.

The neighbourhood (say, Bridge-Main-Adelaide stretch), as Fischbob points out, has a very good grid system and is very central to many amenities in the city. There's a tremendous opportunity for gentrification and rebuild. The city can do very well with this area if it is rebuilt properly with strong planning and foresight. I'd hate to see suburban style builds (additional greenery, parking, setbacks, etc.). The grid is built for a tight, dense buildup of lots and properties. Basically, North End has the potential to be what the Uptown can't be: new builds with no regard for maintaining consistent styling or heritage.

I do agree that the area (say, Bridge-Main-Adelaide stretch) but I think the call for urban renewal "Rebuild Saint-John" called for is to make the grid more of a grid, and have less streets like Montgomery Crescent, and turn properties like Lansdowne Plaza/Sobeys into more of an indoor mall with underground parking.

The issue that I see with the Plan the group calls for is to replace NB Housing with Subsidized housing 15%-25% of residential units, and the fact they seemingly are calling for more housing then would be needed in all of Saint-John.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Scarface

I do agree that the area (say, Bridge-Main-Adelaide stretch) but I think the call for urban renewal "Rebuild Saint-John" called for is to make the grid more of a grid, and have less streets like Montgomery Crescent, and turn properties like Lansdowne Plaza/Sobeys into more of an indoor mall with underground parking.

Indoors malls are not really the way retail is going...it's especially not going towards car-oriented mall developments (Parkway and Loch Lomond are good examples of this). The only types of malls surviving in the 21st century are those in urban setting adjacent to centres of employment and residential (think city centre). Lansdowne may meet that requirement for some but Brunswick Square fits that mold more than Lansdowne does.

I've always thought Lansdowne would be a better location for the previous mayor's planned fourplex proposal, or at least some kind of multi-use recreational facility.

[Fischbob]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Indoors malls are not really the way retail is going...it's especially not going towards car-oriented mall developments (Parkway and Loch Lomond are good examples of this).

Not to mention there's already a failed indoor shopping mall in the vicinity of Lansdowne - Place 400 (formerly Chesley Place).

PlanSJ envisions the Lansdowne Avenue corridor as a "Mixed Use Centre" in its future land use designation. I'd like to see the parking lots there evolve into a small street grid in their own right, with a midrise commercial/residential building typology that takes advantage of the area's proximity to frequent transit. If the strip mall were to be redeveloped, I would extend Victoria Street to Lansdowne in order to create a better pedestrian connection from the Old North End.

[SJLad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I've always thought Lansdowne would be a better location for the previous mayor's planned fourplex proposal, or at least some kind of multi-use recreational facility.

I always thought that you could bulldoze the majority of place 400 the LBR and connect the mayor's planned fourplex right to the Holiday Inn, in that space.

I would also bulldoze the old Fort Howe hotel, and Hyllard Place and redevelop that whole space like the town houses on Chesley Dive, or something better. There is plenty of office space in the City, that whole strip is currently being wasted.

[SJLad]

Originally Posted by Scarface

I do agree that the area (say, Bridge-Main-Adelaide stretch) but I think the call for urban renewal "Rebuild Saint-John" called for is to make the grid more of a grid, and have less streets like Montgomery Crescent, and turn properties like Lansdowne Plaza/Sobeys into more of an indoor mall with underground parking.

The issue that I see with the Plan the group calls for is to replace NB Housing with Subsidized housing 15%-25% of residential units, and the fact they seemingly are calling for more housing then would be needed in all of Saint-John.

In order for the old north end to be revitalized, it has to shed the image of being a low income ghetto, and develop with mixed use and mixed income in mind.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by SJLad

I always thought that you could bulldoze the majority of place 400 the LBR and connect the mayor's planned fourplex right to the Holiday Inn, in that space.

I would also bulldoze the old Fort Howe hotel, and Hyllard Place and redevelop that whole space like the town houses on Chesley Dive, or something better. There is plenty of office space in the City, that whole strip is currently being wasted.

That hotel is about to go through a renovation and place 400 is occupied - don’t think owners would want them bulldozed. Be good to narrow main st so housing can be built on the North side of it

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by Fischbob

Not to mention there's already a failed indoor shopping mall in the vicinity of Lansdowne - Place 400 (formerly Chesley Place).

PlanSJ envisions the Lansdowne Avenue corridor as a "Mixed Use Centre" in its future land use designation. I'd like to see the parking lots there evolve into a small street grid in their own right, with a midrise commercial/residential building typology that takes advantage of the area's proximity to frequent transit. If the strip mall were to be redeveloped, I would extend Victoria Street to Lansdowne in order to create a better pedestrian connection from the Old North End.

I din't know Place 400 was still operational. But that is good to know. It really needs a face lift in that case. We drove by, and it looked deserted.

Originally Posted by SJLad

In order for the old north end to be revitalized, it has to shed the image of being a low income ghetto, and develop with mixed use and mixed income in mind.

I think that was the plan behind "Rebuild Saint-John" Previous rebuilding the entire city plans. But the message came out extremely different.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by Scarface

I din't know Place 400 was still operational. But that is good to know. It really needs a face lift in that case. We drove by, and it looked deserted.



I think that was the plan behind "Rebuild Saint-John" Previous rebuilding the entire city plans. But the message came out extremely different.

It’s occupied by IBM and Xerox

[SJLad]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

It’s occupied by IBM and Xerox

Are they using the full space available at Place 400? It looks from the outside that it and Hyllard Place are only about 1/3 full. You could probably move all the offices in those two buildings to the City Hall tower, or the Red Rose Tea Building.

It would be nice to see a community built in that space (and long warf for that matter), because it's so close to the uptown.

[michael_d40]

Originally Posted by SJLad

Are they using the full space available at Place 400? It looks from the outside that it and Hyllard Place are only about 1/3 full. You could probably move all the offices in those two buildings to the City Hall tower, or the Red Rose Tea Building.

It would be nice to see a community built in that space (and long warf for that matter), because it's so close to the uptown.

Red Rose Tea building is essentially full. There’s only 3 thousand sq ft available currently in that building.

[SJLad]

Nice! That's awesome.

[RaginRonic]

Originally Posted by Fischbob

The biggest issue with the current Millidgeville route is that a lot of resources are spent serving the sparsely populated Sandy Point Road/Kennebecasis Drive loop. This in turn causes frequency to suffer, which further drives down ridership on the route. Cut this section, and more possibilities start to open up. I do think the Hospital/UNB makes sense as a northern termination point for the route since it serves as a strong anchoring trip generator, and I would keep the current alignment through central Millidgeville otherwise (mostly) intact.

To bring the focus back to the North End, here are a couple potential alignments that might improve the neighbourhood's transit situation if it's paired with greater frequency (say, 20-30 minute headways). In both cases I've opted to keep Sobeys as a key waypoint since it's an important amenity and connection point to other routes.



The red alignment pretty much mirrors the current route through the North End except the zigzag along Newman/Albert streets is removed. This small realignment should imprive the legibility of the route overall, which is important in attracting more spontaneous ridership.

The blue alignment departs from the well-trodden Main Street corridor and instead approaches the Uptown via Somerset. If paired with targeted intensification at Joyce's Corner and Somerset/Magazine, there is potential to generate new ridership along this section.

Overall, the routing changes I'm proposing within the neighbourhood proper aren't that radical. The real difference maker here would be increasing the level of service (frequency and operating hours) to make it a more viable transportation option throughout the day.

Fischbob, I don't know if you'd do it, but is it possible if you could please do a map of the 2 routes I mentioned? I think it'd help to see those alignments, using the streets I described, for mind's eye purposes.

And I guess that part of the far-north Millidgeville route, which I guess is the Sandy Point end of the route, could be clawed back to one bus per hour during non-rush periods(once per half-hour during rush), and maybe 1 bus per 90 minutes on weekends and holidays.

Still though, the Millidgeville run, to me, would not go into either the Uptown or North End.

And in terms of the North End bus going along Somerset instead, from the map you gave, I actually like it, though if I kept the route exclusively in the North End, with no Uptown piece to the route, I'd have the bus go to Wellesley Ave., keep on to the end, turn left on Lansdowne, to Place 400, to Portland, to Hilyard, to Simonds, to Main, to Lansdowne, and then along the route I specified going to Millidge and Belleview.

o.o

[Taeolas]

One thing you could do to plot routes on Google Maps, is to have google give directions between the start and end points of the route and then start adding waypoints to drag it to match the bus route you are proposing.

[Fischbob]

Another easy way to draw and share interactive maps is through Google My Maps. If you have a Google account just go to Google Maps, click on "Your Places" and then the "Maps" tab as per below and then click "Create New"





Once you're in the application, you can draw and label points and lines (click to start and add waypoints, double click to finish) with the indicated buttons and customize lots of other things, then click the share button when you're ready to post the URL. As the owner, only you have editing privileges by default.



I would highly encourage you to try this tool out in order to share your route ideas.

[RaginRonic]

Actually, Fischbob, I used Bing Maps, because it let me use more than 10 destination points.

For the North End route, I got this below.



For the record, G and T are the same point of the map, with K being the turnaround point.

Again, this is only if the North End route was to stay in the North End for it's entire daily cycle, and not go uptown.

Now, for Millidgeville, I came up with 2 options. One keeps the route to Sandy Point, while the other omits it, and has it's turnaround point at a new street. In both options, the bus goes around the whole UNB-SJ Tucker Park Road loop.



This option keeps the long Kennebecasis segment, but Stop U is where the bus turns around and cycles in the other direction.



This option, like a previous poster suggested, eliminates the long Kennebecasis Drive portion entirely, and has it's turnaround point at Crown Hill Crescent instead of the Zoo area. Obviously, this one's much shorter, and stays more within the urbanized area.

A thought that occurred to me as well, about the Millidgeville run, is if a hybrid model existed for it, then the Zoo area would be the turnaround point during the period up to 7PM, with Crown Hill being the turnaround after 7.

And like the North End route, the Millidgeville run would stay entirely in that part of the city, with the Regional/UNB bus stop at the Hospital being the connection point Uptown.

What do you guys think of these options?