VIA Rail network developments

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

@roger1818 and @lrt's friend
The second is upgrading the existing line from Smiths Falls to Coteau. This may not have been on the public radar, but, given that they own the corridor, and know that double tracking it will allow for big improvements in speed, and reduced delays, this is one section of the network that is an easy win for them. Its hard to imagine VIA didn't have plans in mind to upgrade that stretch.

​

I wouldn't hold my breath assuming that Ottawa to Coteau will be improved. Don't forget that Via also owns the ex CP ROW from Ottawa - Rigaud to the Winchester Sub. This was purchased as HSR route by Via previously. This would also avoid the congestion on CN between Coteau and some point where the trains would transfer from CP back to CN in order to gain access to Central Station. This route has much straighter geometry than the CN route from Ottawa to Coteau and the CP main is not as congested as the CN main.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I wouldn't hold my breath assuming that Ottawa to Coteau will be improved. Don't forget that Via also owns the ex CP ROW from Ottawa - Rigaud to the Winchester Sub. This was purchased as HSR route by Via previously. This would also avoid the congestion on CN between Coteau and some point where the trains would transfer from CP back to CN in order to gain access to Central Station. This route has much straighter geometry than the CN route from Ottawa to Coteau and the CP main is not as congested as the CN main.

And that might be the case. At the end of the day details are still sparse, so it is tough to know exactly what their intent is, and my assumptions about the project might be totally off. I guess I will find out once funding for it is actually announced, and plans start to emerge.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I wouldn't hold my breath assuming that Ottawa to Coteau will be improved. Don't forget that Via also owns the ex CP ROW from Ottawa - Rigaud to the Winchester Sub. This was purchased as HSR route by Via previously. This would also avoid the congestion on CN between Coteau and some point where the trains would transfer from CP back to CN in order to gain access to Central Station. This route has much straighter geometry than the CN route from Ottawa to Coteau and the CP main is not as congested as the CN main.

While I wouldn't rule out the former M&O Subdivision, I don't think VIA plans to use it anytime soon. If you look closely at the HFR map, they have a station in Alexandria (not on the M&O Sub) yet Coteau is not an HFR station, but a new station, Dorion, is. I beleive they plan to avoid the congestion by switching to CP's Winchester Subdivision in de Beaujeu (just north of Coteau). My guess is they hope to acquire the Winchester Sub. east of the junction and let CP use the Alexandria Sub south of the junction to divert CP's trains to CN's Cornwall Subdivision. VIA and EXO would then share the Winchester Sub (east of de Beaujeu), and CN and CP would share the Cornwall Sub (east of Coteau).

[CityTech]

The typo for Eglinton is cringy. That said, I wonder where exactly that station would be. It's not overly clear which approach route into Union VIA is using; there's several options with the Peterborough route. "Eglinton" could correspond either to Kennedy station, or Eglinton & Leslie, adjacent to the Science Centre.

The approach to Toronto is actually a big question. Sticking directly to the track from Peterborough would mean using quite a bit of a heavily used CP mainline through Scarborough and midtown Toronto; alternatively, switching to the GO Stouffville tracks where the two cross just south of Sheppard Avenue would dodge this problem, but it would bump up against Metrolinx's existing plans for that section, and given that's slated to be one of the RER mainlines with frequent trains, that might not be practical either.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by CityTech

The approach to Toronto is actually a big question. Sticking directly to the track from Peterborough would mean using quite a bit of a heavily used CP mainline through Scarborough and midtown Toronto; alternatively, switching to the GO Stouffville tracks where the two cross just south of Sheppard Avenue would dodge this problem, but it would bump up against Metrolinx's existing plans for that section, and given that's slated to be one of the RER mainlines with frequent trains, that might not be practical either.

VIA doesn't have a definative answer either. In the VIA Rail's 2017 ANNUAL PUBLIC MEETING – QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS it one of the Q&As was:

6. I'm really excited for the High Frequency Rail project. Considering the fact that the project will use a new rail line that runs through Peterborough, how will the trains access Toronto Union Station? Through the Don Valley on the old Don Branch?
There are several options for access to Toronto Union Station being considered including those mentioned.

It is possilbe that VIA knows something that we don't. CP's behaviour east of Toronto has been rather strange. East of Smiths Falls, the Winchester Sub is double tracked, but they have disposed of all of their track west of Smiths Falls other than the Bellville Sub, which is only single track. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but there may be a bigger plan that we aren't aware of.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It is possilbe that VIA knows something that we don't.

I think that is a given. VIA is going to have to work closely with Metrolinx to plan an exit from the Toronto and onto their new line. Given the massive upgrades taking place to the GO rail network in Toronto I would imagine VIA is using the opportunity to ensure that its future needs are being considered as well. It would be kind of insane if they weren't as this is a golden opportunity for them as well. Everything is being upgraded so now is the time to get in. Even if they have to throw some money into Toronto/GTA lines or projects to get what they need it would be totally worth it.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It is possilbe that VIA knows something that we don't. CP's behaviour east of Toronto has been rather strange. East of Smiths Falls, the Winchester Sub is double tracked, but they have disposed of all of their track west of Smiths Falls other than the Bellville Sub, which is only single track. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but there may be a bigger plan that we aren't aware of.

I don't understand why you say CP's behaviour east of Toronto is strange. The only section of double track there ever was is from Glen Tay to Montreal. The section from Glen Tay to Smiths Falls was single tracked when the Glen Tay to Havelock line was abandoned. The remaining double track from Montreal to Smiths Falls was kept as double track even after the line from Smiths Falls to Mattawa was abandoned. I guess there is enough diverted traffic off the Chalk River/North Bay subdivisions to maintain the double track to Montreal.

I think CP would keep their own access to St Luc yard in Montreal but sell or lease CN line to provide access to Central Station.

Historically CP had more double track in western Canada until the track was singled to provide steel for the First or Second World War effort. I don't believe they ever did the same thing to Montreal Toronto main line.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by CityTech

The typo for Eglinton is cringy. That said, I wonder where exactly that station would be. It's not overly clear which approach route into Union VIA is using; there's several options with the Peterborough route. "Eglinton" could correspond either to Kennedy station, or Eglinton & Leslie, adjacent to the Science Centre.

The approach to Toronto is actually a big question. Sticking directly to the track from Peterborough would mean using quite a bit of a heavily used CP mainline through Scarborough and midtown Toronto; alternatively, switching to the GO Stouffville tracks where the two cross just south of Sheppard Avenue would dodge this problem, but it would bump up against Metrolinx's existing plans for that section, and given that's slated to be one of the RER mainlines with frequent trains, that might not be practical either.

If the Stouffville line is double tracked, I think there will be sufficient capacity to serve both GO RER and VIA. From what I understand, GO RER will offer 15 minute service, so double tracking offers a lot of extra capacity.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I don't understand why you say CP's behaviour east of Toronto is strange. The only section of double track there ever was is from Glen Tay to Montreal. The section from Glen Tay to Smiths Falls was single tracked when the Glen Tay to Havelock line was abandoned. The remaining double track from Montreal to Smiths Falls was kept as double track even after the line from Smiths Falls to Mattawa was abandoned. I guess there is enough diverted traffic off the Chalk River/North Bay subdivisions to maintain the double track to Montreal.

Exactly. That was CP's main transcontinental route. The Belleville Subdivision was only for trains to/from Toronto and other points to the south. Trains from both the main line and the Belleville sub would funnel onto the Winchester Sub. Now that they have torn up their main line to the west and are funnelling all traffic through Toronto and the Belleville sub, it doesn't make sense for the Winchester sub to be double tracked.

I think CP would keep their own access to St Luc yard in Montreal but sell or lease CN line to provide access to Central Station.

The CPR never used Central Station and thus never had access to it. They always used Windsor Station but now access to it is blocked by the Bell Centre. VIA will have to either divert back to CN's tracks somewhere east of Dorval, build a new route to Central Station, or build a new station (a possibility I wouldn't rule out).

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The CPR never used Central Station and thus never had access to it. They always used Windsor Station but now access to it is blocked by the Bell Centre. VIA will have to either divert back to CN's tracks somewhere east of Dorval, build a new route to Central Station, or build a new station (a possibility I wouldn't rule out).

The situation in Montreal is a total mess. I am sure VIA can hack something together to allow for increased service into Montreal in the short term. But long term solutions are going to be expensive and, as you said, may necessitate the need for a new station, or some serious renovations of the existing one(s). And I feel as though the REM is going to unleash a lot of problems once it opens. I know that RTM/Exo wants to use the MR Tunnel for some of its commuter rail services, alongside the REM service. And I know technology can help manage the two types of traffic. But in actual operation, I suspect it will be a disaster that is going to send the regions commuter rail service into a crisis. Not to say that it will cripple and halt service, but any chance of expanding, or even just improving existing service, become dead in the water without some serious infrastructure investments).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

The situation in Montreal is a total mess. I am sure VIA can hack something together to allow for increased service into Montreal in the short term. But long term solutions are going to be expensive and, as you said, may necessitate the need for a new station, or some serious renovations of the existing one(s). And I feel as though the REM is going to unleash a lot of problems once it opens. I know that RTM/Exo wants to use the MR Tunnel for some of its commuter rail services, alongside the REM service. And I know technology can help manage the two types of traffic. But in actual operation, I suspect it will be a disaster that is going to send the regions commuter rail service into a crisis. Not to say that it will cripple and halt service, but any chance of expanding, or even just improving existing service, become dead in the water without some serious infrastructure investments).

From what I have heard, VIA will have to use the CP rail line around Mount Royal in order to access the north shore route to Quebec City. The Mount Royal tunnel is to be reserved for REM.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

From what I have heard, VIA will have to use the CP rail line around Mount Royal in order to access the north shore route to Quebec City. The Mount Royal tunnel is to be reserved for REM.

From what I could tell, that seemed to be the latest plan. That is also a blow to VIA. It is going to add another 15 minutes to the trip, versus going through the tunnel. It might not sound like a big deal, but instead of the new HFR line saving 1 hour on the trip to Quebec City, it is only going to save 45 minutes. And if there is more traffic on that line, it could add more congestion and delays, eating away at the time savings a bit more. And for that segment of the HFR line, the time savings was really its big selling point. Losing that tunnel access does hurt the projects appeal a bit, through no fault of its own either.


The more I think about it, the clearer it becomes that REM, as good intentioned as it was, also made some really dumb choices.

[White Pine]

I had also heard that via was thinking of another station on the other side of the mountain shared with one of the rem stations and one of the exo lines.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by White Pine

I had also heard that via was thinking of another station on the other side of the mountain shared with one of the rem stations and one of the exo lines.

I has speculated that they might do that, but never heard anything official.

Here is what the routes could look like if that would happen (western line to Ottawa/Toronto in Red, eastern line to Quebec City in blue and REM in purple). The only thing is there isn't much land to build a station there. You can click on the map to see other ideas I had (some more feasible than others).

[Baybreeze12]

Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't it be possible to tunnel a new, third track under Mount-Royal? That way VIA gets to connect to Gare Centrale without conflicting with the REM, Exo or any freight traffic.

Is that not considered an option due to cost, or is it because of some other railway infrastructure issues?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Baybreeze12

Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't it be possible to tunnel a new, third track under Mount-Royal? That way VIA gets to connect to Gare Centrale without conflicting with the REM, Exo or any freight traffic.

Is that not considered an option due to cost, or is it because of some other railway infrastructure issues?

I’m not aware of any technical limitations so cost is certainly a major concern. Another is the risk of building a tunnel to a station that VIA Rail doesn’t own and thus could get kicked out of one day due to space limitations. Better to leave on your own terms.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I’m not aware of any technical limitations so cost is certainly a major concern. Another is the risk of building a tunnel to a station that VIA Rail doesn’t own and thus could get kicked out of one day due to space limitations. Better to leave on your own terms.

The smart strategy would be to pair up with Exo and have a new tunnel built for both VIA and commuter trains. But as you mentioned, there are other problems beyond that. People need to be able to flow on and off the trains quickly and the current station really doesn't allow for that. Rationalizing commuter rail and VIA lines through the central part of Montreal is definitely possible, it just wouldn't be cheap. VIA will be able to cobble together interim plans, even if they are not ideal. But REM is going to force the need for grander, long term, solutions a lot sooner than if the project didn't exist in its current form.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

From what I could tell, that seemed to be the latest plan. That is also a blow to VIA. It is going to add another 15 minutes to the trip, versus going through the tunnel. It might not sound like a big deal, but instead of the new HFR line saving 1 hour on the trip to Quebec City, it is only going to save 45 minutes. And if there is more traffic on that line, it could add more congestion and delays, eating away at the time savings a bit more. And for that segment of the HFR line, the time savings was really its big selling point. Losing that tunnel access does hurt the projects appeal a bit, through no fault of its own either.


The more I think about it, the clearer it becomes that REM, as good intentioned as it was, also made some really dumb choices.

For the 1000 users of the QC trains compared to the hundreds of thousands of users for the REM, I won't gonna cry on the loss of the tunnel... especially that it's only about 15 minutes more.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

The smart strategy would be to pair up with Exo and have a new tunnel built for both VIA and commuter trains. But as you mentioned, there are other problems beyond that. People need to be able to flow on and off the trains quickly and the current station really doesn't allow for that. Rationalizing commuter rail and VIA lines through the central part of Montreal is definitely possible, it just wouldn't be cheap. VIA will be able to cobble together interim plans, even if they are not ideal. But REM is going to force the need for grander, long term, solutions a lot sooner than if the project didn't exist in its current form.

The current strategy is to replace some commuter trains with the REM, which even with financing costs, new infrastructure t be put, new metro trains to buy, is still cheaper than an EXO train per user per km.

The Mascouche line serves a couple of thousands of users and there were plans by the previous government to have a REM-compatible line. Betting on commuter trains, especially own tracks that are not owned by EXO or VIA, is a bad idea altogether.

There are rumours that the A40 REM station EXO platform planned to serve as a terminal for the Mascouche line will not be built as the ARTM is looking into running it around the mountain. There's already a connexion for that train, albeit not optimal, at the Sauvé metro station.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

For the 1000 users of the QC trains compared to the hundreds of thousands of users for the REM, I won't gonna cry on the loss of the tunnel... especially that it's only about 15 minutes more.

I get it. Regional transit in Montreal and environs isn't great and there is value to the REM project. And since this is a thread about VIA I wouldn't deviate too far from that. But the issue with REM and the MR Tunnel is more about the basket case that is regional transit planning in the Montreal region. I know that sometimes plans change or get sacked, that is normal. But over the past decade they have flip flopped and change plans around on an almost yearly basis. And then when they finally commit to a large scale project, there seems to have been no accounting for the cascade of problems that will result from the design of the REM network.

I am not saying the agencies and planning has to be perfect. But what you see in Montreal is a far cry from the methodical and organized planning you see from Metrolinx or other transit agencies in Canada.