PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[iheartphilly]

^
We are going down this road again. Amazon was looking for tech employees and chose NYC for that reason, and wants to play politics given the business they do with the federal gov't, so DC Metro was selected as the other location. At the end of the day, all the other BS factors were nothing more than smoke and mirrors to inflate the financial incentives for themselves. Shame on them. Glad we didn't get it.

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by McBane

Totally forgot about the CH lines! Those are probably the most obvious candidates for increased service and not coincidentally, those trains run entirely within city limits. Moreso than perhaps any other train line, those CH East and West should really be operating and priced like a metro line. At least Rox/Man has the 62, 27, and 9 bus lines...

there was a proposal to change the route of the ch west line so that trains would run in the broad street subway, effectively making it the nw expansion of the subway. it would be easy to do, the only technical hurdle would be changing the locations of where the trains got power, from overhead lines to 3rd rail. but that seems easily overcome.
I wish they'd do that.

[Nova08]

Originally Posted by McBane

True and I could be biased, but the Norristown line runs through some pretty dense areas - East Falls, Manayunk, Roxborough, Conshy, and Norristown - whose main connection to the city is godawful 76. Plus, those communities (except Norristown) are loaded with young professionals who work and play in the city (A recent census report showed 75% of Manyunk's population are Millennial). I could see that line being utilized more on weeknights and weekends. The Paoli line, also runs through some of the region's more densely populated suburbs and which also rely on 76 to get to the city. And the Airport line - every 30 minutes is not all convenient. Not sure any of the other lines are viable candidates for increased service.

Totally agree here. Between Conshohocken, the fairly large apartment complex that rose next to the Spring Mill station, Manayunk, East Falls, the hourly midday and weekend headways on the Norristown line are a killer.

For instance these are the midday departures from Conshohocken into center city - 10:06am, 11:04am, 12:06pm, 1pm, 2pm, 3:23pm, 4:08pm. There is not a ton of flexibility if one works in Conshohocken and needs to take a half day or cut out early or if someone living in Conshohocken wants to meet friends in center city for happy hour and leave just before the rush.

[Boku]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^
We are going down this road again. Amazon was looking for tech employees and chose NYC for that reason, and wants to play politics given the business they do with the federal gov't, so DC Metro was selected as the other location. At the end of the day, all the other BS factors were nothing more than smoke and mirrors to inflate the financial incentives for themselves. Shame on them. Glad we didn't get it.

Yeah, I didn't really want to bring up Amazon again, but I thought the sentence "Philadelphia wasn’t even on the company’s radar" coming from such a major company was a pretty damning one. Hopefully it opened up some eyes with city leadership.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by Boku

Yeah, I didn't really want to bring up Amazon again, but I thought the sentence "Philadelphia wasn’t even on the company’s radar" coming from such a major company was a pretty damning one. Hopefully it opened up some eyes with city leadership.

It's not that shocking since we are not a major tech hub or have tech heavyweight companies like google, oracle, etc in our back yard, so w/r/t having us on Amazon's radar with their intent for big technology and the seat of federal power is no surprise. The tech world in terms of the big players (revenues in the hundred of millions or billions) is small and executives and managers know of each other if not personally but professionally.

I think Philly is moving in the right direction for medical, healthcare, and even education technology. But, I don't see us in all things related to say the silicon valley type of tech or tech start up and if we do get a few here and there, we are usually bought out by a bigger tech firm located outside of this region. One thing to note is that Wayne/Radnor does well with fintech. Wish that could be brought into the city in the future. FS investments is in the Navy Yard...they should be over University City where Nasdaq Philly Index is located.

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by Boku

Yikes.

Philadelphia's biggest commercial real estate stories of the year

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...hias-biggest-commercial-real-estate.html

I am...skeptical of this reporting tbh, since Anne Fadullon wasn't really involved in the HQ2 process. Anything she would be saying would effectively be hearsay.

(I think I know what she meant and it was worded poorly on her part, though.)

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

there was a proposal to change the route of the ch west line so that trains would run in the broad street subway, effectively making it the nw expansion of the subway. it would be easy to do, the only technical hurdle would be changing the locations of where the trains got power, from overhead lines to 3rd rail. but that seems easily overcome.
I wish they'd do that.

that makes sense, it's only a block away at north Philadelphia station and is more direct and gives folks in Germantown/Mt Airy/CH direct access to the stadiums. If the schedule is being limited by sharing the ROW with Amtrak, that would fix that as well. Aren't third rails susceptible to issues when they aren't in a tunnel though? Also wouldn't want them to mess with all the historic train stations on that line. The BSL seems pretty underutilized for being 4 tracks.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Boku

Yeah, I didn't really want to bring up Amazon again, but I thought the sentence "Philadelphia wasn’t even on the company’s radar" coming from such a major company was a pretty damning one. Hopefully it opened up some eyes with city leadership.

How does a city not on the radar end up as a finalist?

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

How does a city not on the radar end up as a finalist?

Small radar

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Parkway

Not trying to be harsh but it's pretty far from solid. Every other city that has this type of connection has more frequent service than we do. For example, Denver's newly opened A Train has 15 minute head ways, Baltimore is every 15 to 20 minutes, and Cleveland is every 15 minutes.

The lower ridership has a lot to do with the head ways, an arriving traveler might spring for a cab rather than wait 25 minutes for the next train. Overall, convenience drives ridership on public transport and frequency is a big part of that convenience.

Up until a couple of years ago the airport line ran at 20 minute headways.
If the assumption that SEPTA loses money on every train it runs is true, then until the pie gets bigger or until alot more people start using trains, increasing service on one line, regardless of when and where that service is, means decreasing service someplace else.
I'm not saying SEPTA is anywhere close to be perfect, just look at their nearly $500M 'key' payment system, but I do understand the financial situation SEPTA lives with.

[iheartphilly]

^
I’m sure lyft or Uber took a bite out of ridership. And those long-term lots are always full when I use them. A second new one off essington has been put to robust use. Be good to see some stats on year over year ridership from this segments.

[mcgrath618]

Actually, SEPTA has steadily been gaining ridership for the last 10 years. They are actually hitting peak ridership every year, with the exception of 2016 and SEPTAgheddon.
Someone said that SEPTA is putting a lot of wasted money into Regional Rail, which isn't necessarily true. I forget where I read it but SEPTA spends significantly less per train ride than MTA does. SEPTA does a pretty good job of cutting costs where it has to (except with this new Key system. Seems really rushed).

I agree that all lines need more frequent service, especially the CHW/E and Norristown lines. The Norristown line will likely be extended to Phoenixville shortly so it will be interesting to see if SEPTA increases daily service. IMO a great standard would be every 15 minutes during rush hour, every 30 minutes any other time. Make it so that if you miss your train, it's not the end of the world. I think that's a huge reason why people Uber rather than take the Regional Rail.
Finally, with the new SLVIs announced, it will be interesting to see how double deckers affect service. Hopefully increased capacity means more trains with less cars.

I don't think the CHW should be made a subway. Not only do both draw electricity from two entirely separate sources, but they also run off of different track gauges. CHW would have to be entirely relain to accommodate the Kawasaki cars. I think that this map shows what the subway system in Philadelphia honestly SHOULD be (with the exception of converting the CHW line):

Interesting thing is too, is that a lot of this infrastructure is already in place. The loop is mostly built, and all the spurs of the BSL have flying junctions already constructed.

[Urbanthusiat]

The Manayunk Norristown line should definitely run on shorter headways and be extended to Phoenixville. There is so much potential for TOD along that corridor. It would help the Venice Island development, bring more towers to Conshy and better connect the Amerisource Bergen tower to CC, help bring new development to Norristown, put Phoenixville's turnaround on steroids, and reduce traffic on 76. Seems like a no-brainer to me. I used to live near Ivy Ridge and there were way too many times I had to call a Lyft into Center City when I would have much preferred to take a train. Frequency is freedom.

[iheartphilly]

^
This Septa report in 2017 is chock full of data. Maybe someone in this forum that works with numbers can look at this and tells us what some of the big data means.

https://septa.org/strategic-plan/reports/route-statistics.pdf

[mcgrath618]

Looks like not a single SEPTA RR line has an OTP of less than 80%. Some are even in the mid-high 90s. Very reassuring after the 75% OTPs of years past.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Actually, SEPTA has steadily been gaining ridership for the last 10 years. They are actually hitting peak ridership every year, with the exception of 2016 and SEPTAgheddon.

But also down for 2017:

SEPTA lost millions of bus trips last year, feds say. Proposed solutions are in the works | Philly.com | March 23, 2018

But here's a more recent report from SEPTA:

REVENUE & RIDERSHIP REPORT NOVEMBER 2018
http://septa.org/strategic-plan/reports/revenue-ride.pdf

[MyDadBuiltThat]

When the High Speed Line is extended to KOP, the Norristown train will be even more important to connect folks in the NW to KOP via a transfer at the Norristown Transportation Center.

"Looks like not a single SEPTA RR line has an OTP of less than 80%. Some are even in the mid-high 90s. Very reassuring after the 75% OTPs of years past." So true. I remember taking the rush hour train from CC to Fort Washington in the mid '80s. The train was two cars long.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Actually, SEPTA has steadily been gaining ridership for the last 10 years. They are actually hitting peak ridership every year, with the exception of 2016 and SEPTAgheddon.
Someone said that SEPTA is putting a lot of wasted money into Regional Rail, which isn't necessarily true. I forget where I read it but SEPTA spends significantly less per train ride than MTA does. SEPTA does a pretty good job of cutting costs where it has to (except with this new Key system. Seems really rushed).

I agree that all lines need more frequent service, especially the CHW/E and Norristown lines. The Norristown line will likely be extended to Phoenixville shortly so it will be interesting to see if SEPTA increases daily service. IMO a great standard would be every 15 minutes during rush hour, every 30 minutes any other time. Make it so that if you miss your train, it's not the end of the world. I think that's a huge reason why people Uber rather than take the Regional Rail.
Finally, with the new SLVIs announced, it will be interesting to see how double deckers affect service. Hopefully increased capacity means more trains with less cars.

I don't think the CHW should be made a subway. Not only do both draw electricity from two entirely separate sources, but they also run off of different track gauges. CHW would have to be entirely relain to accommodate the Kawasaki cars. I think that this map shows what the subway system in Philadelphia honestly SHOULD be (with the exception of converting the CHW line):

Interesting thing is too, is that a lot of this infrastructure is already in place. The loop is mostly built, and all the spurs of the BSL have flying junctions already constructed.

Very cool map! What a dream this would be.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by MyDadBuiltThat

When the High Speed Line is extended to KOP, the Norristown train will be even more important to connect folks in the NW to KOP via a transfer at the Norristown Transportation Center.

"Looks like not a single SEPTA RR line has an OTP of less than 80%. Some are even in the mid-high 90s. Very reassuring after the 75% OTPs of years past." So true. I remember taking the rush hour train from CC to Fort Washington in the mid '80s. The train was two cars long.

Thats an "if", not a "when". The entire project is contingent on winning a federal grant to offset half the cost. They haven't even applied yet. To my knowledge there has been no discussion of a "plan B" if the money doesn't come through. In fact, it's not even totally clear how the other half would be funded. SEPTA can't afford to fund it solely from it's capital budget with all the other needs out there.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

But also down for 2017:

SEPTA lost millions of bus trips last year, feds say. Proposed solutions are in the works | Philly.com | March 23, 2018

But here's a more recent report from SEPTA:

REVENUE & RIDERSHIP REPORT NOVEMBER 2018
http://septa.org/strategic-plan/reports/revenue-ride.pdf

It's important to note that most of the ridership losses aren't occurring during the day/during rush hour, but late at night. That makes sense, as many SEPTA bus and trolley routes stop running after 2AM. I personally refuse to take Uber/Lyft home, especially since the 42 drops me off steps from my place; however, I'd have no choice but to use those services should I party in Manayunk and need to get back to West Philly.

I'd make the following improvements to boost overnight ridership:

-Convert the 3, 47, 61, 65, and 70 into Night Owl bus routes
-Add service to the 64, and extend later trips to at least 46th and Market instead of 49th and Woodland
-24/7 service would be preferable on the El and BSL; in fact, that service was discontinued due to crime concerns in the 90s, not due to ridership. If we can't get 24/7 service on both lines, however, we should at least have articulated buses running every 10 minutes. Getting squished onto beyond crowded shorter buses is ridiculous!
-Add Night Owl service to the 34 trolley