Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Dengler Avenue]

So this is why Abbotsford and Mission don't wanna join Metro Vancouver...

[Sonicwolf]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

So this is why Abbotsford and Mission don't wanna join Metro Vancouver...

We don't want to join Vancouver because we don't want to become ignored tax-slaves for Metro Vancouver with no hope for intercity transit solutions in sight. We've been waiting decade after nauseating decade for our one, single, lifeline of a highway to be widened for the first time. If we get into Translink territory, we will have to pay into the pot for transit we wouldn't see until the mid 23rd century.

Not that Abbotsfordians and CFV people don't want transit... We just don't want an endless future of empty promises and no solutions. Trust me, I'm tired of driving. Tired of paying ICBC's punishing rates.

Realistic plans for intercity rapid transit that are timetabled would be the only way to get us onboard.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Sonicwolf

We don't want to join Vancouver because we don't want to become ignored tax-slaves for Metro Vancouver with no hope for intercity transit solutions in sight. We've been waiting decade after nauseating decade for our one, single, lifeline of a highway to be widened for the first time. If we get into Translink territory, we will have to pay into the pot for transit we wouldn't see until the mid 23rd century.

Not that Abbotsfordians and CFV people don't want transit... We just don't want an endless future of empty promises and no solutions. Trust me, I'm tired of driving. Tired of paying ICBC's punishing rates.

Realistic plans for intercity rapid transit that are timetabled would be the only way to get us onboard.

I suppose Langley's served as an example (at least back in the days) eh?

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Funny thing I noticed:

Expo was originally supposed to be on the ground, before being converted to elevated.

Millennium was originally supposed to be LRT.

Then Canada- then Evergreen- and now this.


Metro Vancouver has a really strange history of Mayors wanting LRT, then not getting LRT because of some outside political force... Any guess why?

Context:

The Expo line reused the Dunsmuir Tunnel and what was the Interurban ROW. The "ALRT" was a made-in-Canada tech, and had Expo 86 not happened it probably would have been a rubbish LRT.

The Millennium Line, was meant to be a three-phase thing, through NDP neighborhoods. The Burnaby/New-West part got built, and the Evergreen and UBC sections did not.

The Canada Line was built for the Olympics and unfortunately cheapened out on things in a way that will ultimately come back to haunt us in 20 years. Had it been a LRT, it would not be used, as it would never go anywhere people need to go. The entire P3P process would also ensure that it became a boondoggle as the private operator would have to be paid, regardless if anyone rides it.

And just like the Surrey LRT, every time a "LRT" is proposed, it gets kiboshed. So Expo and Canada Lines were both directly the result of Federal and Provincial choices. The Millenium Line and the Evergreen Line were directly the result of the Province. The Surrey LRT only got where it did because the City buried their head in the sand.

The cities were wanting more control of Translink so they could not think regionally. However consider what could have happened under the BC Liberal party or BC NDP party without SkytrainForSurrey. If Translink was operating like it did in 1996, I'm sure all the transit lines would be Skytrain, as meddling and delays would have been reduced. However people like Bateman (CTF) and Condon keep shooting their mouths off on TV and that results in harm to rapid transit planning and funding.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kisai

However people like Bateman (CTF) and Condon keep shooting their mouths off on TV and that results in harm to rapid transit planning and funding.

Mercifully Jordan Bateman got a new job last year so we barely hear from him anymore. Some sanity has been regained.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Kisai

The Expo line reused the Dunsmuir Tunnel and what was the Interurban ROW. The "ALRT" was a made-in-Canada tech, and had Expo 86 not happened it probably would have been a rubbish LRT.

And when they were planning the LRT, Burnaby wanted so many overpasses that the planners decided to make it one big overpass instead. Not that anybody's complaining about the result.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

This is why the transit model for Metro Van is messed up. The Mayors don't think as a group but rather whose turn is it to get the next project. Surrey should never have been allowed to even start the LRT nonesense. The argument was, "It's Surrey's turn now"!!! from Watts and Hepner.

It's game playing. Vote for me and I will vote for you. Decisions should be based on sound transportation principles and the region as a whole.

So it should be operated like the GVRD/Metro Vancouver?

Originally Posted by Sonicwolf

We don't want to join Vancouver because we don't want to become ignored tax-slaves for Metro Vancouver with no hope for intercity transit solutions in sight. We've been waiting decade after nauseating decade for our one, single, lifeline of a highway to be widened for the first time. If we get into Translink territory, we will have to pay into the pot for transit we wouldn't see until the mid 23rd century.

Not that Abbotsfordians and CFV people don't want transit... We just don't want an endless future of empty promises and no solutions. Trust me, I'm tired of driving. Tired of paying ICBC's punishing rates.

Realistic plans for intercity rapid transit that are timetabled would be the only way to get us onboard.

Will extending the WCE to Abbosford suffice?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Will extending the WCE to Abbosford suffice?

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy - TransLink's going to prioritize projects that're within their jurisdiction, so a WCE extension won't happen until Abbotsford joins the GVRD.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy - TransLink's going to prioritize projects that're within their jurisdiction, so a WCE extension won't happen until Abbotsford joins the GVRD.

Which is most likely never until the cities in the GVRD get their shit together.

[BirchTrain]

Originally Posted by fredinno

So it should be operated like the GVRD/Metro Vancouver?



Will extending the WCE to Abbosford suffice?

There isn’t any existing rail from Mission City station to Abbotsford without having the train turn around.

They could run trains on the former Interurban line out to the valley.



Now after visiting Rail for the Valley’s website, I’ve seen a new incredibly well written post by zweisystem. (http://www.railforthevalley.com/latest-n...slink-design-surreys-light-rail-to-fail/)

Surrey’s rejection of light rail in favour of SkyTrain with hardly a whimper from TransLink and without any rebuttal to the mayor of Surrey spurious claims about LRT, makes me think TransLink purposely designed light rail to fail in Surrey.

Now zwei is claiming that TransLink intended LRT to fail. Totally not because the residents of that region voted overwhelmingly against this project, but because TransLink secretly rigged the whole thing to fail!

Zwei was always dubious with Surrey’s light rail planning and early on, calling it a poor man’s SkyTrain.

Now referring to yourself in the third person, eh?

The politically popular, SkyTrain for Surrey folks, with a well choreographed anti LRT pitch, laced with false information; fake news; cherry-picked comparisons and pure SkyTrain propaganda soon made their presence felt.

When in doubt, accuse the other side of doing what you do.

Building SkyTrain to Surrey will not take a car off the road, simply because so few people living near the SkyTrain Line are actually going to Vancouver: there isn’t the ridership to support a SkyTrain.

Funny you say that, because the first thing on your “myths and facts” addresses population (http://www.railforthevalley.com/the-need/). Not only that, but rapid rail builds communities. Sure, the Fraser Highway corridor isn’t as dense as it should be. But look at some old SkyTrain footage and tell me how they didn’t have the density to justify rail. Oh wait, you are against SkyTrain as a whole. Finally, Skytrain isn’t just for going to Vancouver! Building the Fraser Highway extension will connect people to Langley City, Surrey City Centre, Moody, Coquitlam, Richmond, Burnaby, New West, you name it. It connects people to the region!

So, for the next decade or so, no rapid transit for Surrey and when the guideway is built and that is still a big if, they may not be any vehicles to operate on it because Bombardier had abandoned production of the ART SkyTrain cars years earlier!

Repeated talking point that rapid transit is stalled in Surrey for 10 years. It surely will not take that long for anything to be built. Regarding the last part, Bombardier was building more SkyTrain cars and they are being delivered right now (remember Marky?). However, zwei does raise a concern that Bombardier Rail does not have Innovia Metro on its website. Don’t exactly know why. The only metro rail technology listed is their Movia series of metros.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by BirchTrain

There isn’t any existing rail from Mission City station to Abbotsford without having the train turn around.

It would not be a huge change to move the Mission WCE station inside the wye, where the old CPR station was I believe

[nname]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Funny thing I noticed:

Expo was originally supposed to be on the ground, before being converted to elevated.

Expo was suppose to be on the ground until they realized the existing Dunsmuir Tunnel isn't high enough for a stacked LRT tunnel -- They would have to build a new tunnel under downtown to have the clearance for the overhead wire and catenary.

Originally Posted by BirchTrain

There isn’t any existing rail from Mission City station to Abbotsford without having the train turn around.

They could run trains on the former Interurban line out to the valley.

The alignment and track condition aren't fit for a mass transit solution anymore... How many at-grade crossing it'll have through the heart of Surrey? If they want to used it again, they will have to rebuild and realign it.

And before anyone calling it a former "rapid" or even "commuter" transit... the service was run 3 times a day, and I remember it takes more than 3 hours to get from Chilliwack to the around the present-day Scott Road location.

Originally Posted by fredinno

Will extending the WCE to Abbosford suffice?

Unlikely under the current arrangement. I believe right now Mission pays 100% of the cost of the Train and TrainBus (now the 701 extension) from Port Haney/Haney Place to Mission. With an extension to Abbotsford, then Abbotsford will pay all the associated capital and operating cost for the extension? (And TransLink will pocket all the fare revenue)

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by BirchTrain

There isn’t any existing rail from Mission City station to Abbotsford without having the train turn around.

They could run trains on the former Interurban line out to the valley.

They could, but it wouldn't connect directly to Scott Rd. Station- and the walk between the 2 would be 21 (!) minutes. If only the Westminster Bridge didn't have to close so much for ship traffic, we could connect it to Southlands Station...

Though, when the Skytrain to Langley is built, a new Station could be built right next to the SRY tracks, connecting to Abbotsford.

And in any case, I don't think there's a problem connecting Abbotsford from Mission Station- assuming the WCE trains can run in a push-pull configuration, that is.

If not, they can move Mission Station westwards.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy - TransLink's going to prioritize projects that're within their jurisdiction, so a WCE extension won't happen until Abbotsford joins the GVRD.

How did it get to Mission in the first place?

WCE also seems to be a bit of a forgotten peg in the transit system, at least by Translink- they proposed two new Stations (one in Burnaby, one in Albion), only to cancel both.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by fredinno

How did it get to Mission in the first place?

WCE also seems to be a bit of a forgotten peg in the transit system, at least by Translink- they proposed two new Stations (one in Burnaby, one in Albion), only to cancel both.

That is a good question that I am genuinely curious to know. Either someone could see 100 years into the future or there was something incredibly corrupt going on to get it there. IDK.

But yeah, I agree that the WCE is a forgotten part of the transit system. Personally I would like to see it expand its hours such as arriving in Vancouver at 7am and leaving Vancouver at 8pm. But I understand that WCE uses the same tracks as other trains (?).

[ilikeredheads]

Originally Posted by scryer

That is a good question that I am genuinely curious to know. Either someone could see 100 years into the future or there was something incredibly corrupt going on to get it there. IDK.

But yeah, I agree that the WCE is a forgotten part of the transit system. Personally I would like to see it expand its hours such as arriving in Vancouver at 7am and leaving Vancouver at 8pm. But I understand that WCE uses the same tracks as other trains (?).

WCE has no track priority. It's using CN's tracks where freight trains are the boss. Any time there's delay for WCE you can bet it's caused by having to wait for one of the freight trains to clear. Translink couldn't improve WCE service even if they wanted to because they'll be at the mercy of CN.

Our entire rail network in Lower Mainland is designed for freight, even then the infrastructure is showing its age. New West bridge is a HUGE bottle neck and it's needs to be replaced and needs to be double track. Running passenger rail on a freight network will run into all sorts of logistical problems and affect reliability. WCE is an oddity and it only exists because CN allows it to exist.

[flipper316]

https://www.straight.com/news/1169136/ho...eturn-cancelling-light-rail-not-many-all

The Straight just can't let LRT go for some reason.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by flipper316

https://www.straight.com/news/1169136/ho...eturn-cancelling-light-rail-not-many-all

The Straight just can't let LRT go for some reason.

I just did a quick search and just about everything on The Straight about LRT is written by the same person...

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

WCE has no track priority. It's using CN's tracks where freight trains are the boss. Any time there's delay for WCE you can bet it's caused by having to wait for one of the freight trains to clear. Translink couldn't improve WCE service even if they wanted to because they'll be at the mercy of CN.

Our entire rail network in Lower Mainland is designed for freight, even then the infrastructure is showing its age. New West bridge is a HUGE bottle neck and it's needs to be replaced and needs to be double track. Running passenger rail on a freight network will run into all sorts of logistical problems and affect reliability. WCE is an oddity and it only exists because CN allows it to exist.

Yeah, the conflict with freight would be my best guess as to why commuter rail is kind of a forgotten beast in Vancouver.


Is the lack of upgrades on the New West Bridge a sort of 'tragedy of the commons' thing? It's used by somewhere around 3 different rail lines...

[Trainguy]

LRT to the valley on the old interurban through Surrey and out to ABB/ Chilliwack would not be feasible.

A Quick History:

BC Hydro took over all the operations of the BC Electric back on the 60's including the interurban line out to Chilliwack. In the 1970's a line was built ( by CPrail? ) from the CN mainline just east of Fort Langley to connect with the BC Hydro line at 232nd to enable coal trains to reach Roberts Bank coal terminal. The spur line west of 184th street is owned by BC Rail with trackage rights to CN, CP, and BNSF.

This is where things get tricky. The corridor, which runs from 184th Street in Surrey, to 232nd Street in Langley, was previously owned and operated by BC Hydro until 1988, when BC Hydro sold the tracks and the equipment to CP Rail. BC Hydro still owns the land that the tracks are on, and in the 1988 agreement, BC Hydro reserved the right to operate a railway, including passenger trains, on the tracks at no cost.

The tracks that the SRY operate on go from New West through Surrey until Cloverdale, and then under operating rights from CP, continue to 232nd street where they rejoin the SRY tracks to Chilliwack.

In order to run an LRT along this whole stretch, it would take operating agreements from several parties which I doubt would come easily, especially east of 184th st because it is very busy already. This is why the FVHR only goes as far as Cloverdale. Also, the tracks through Surrey would need a major upgrade to reach LRT standards.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads View Post
WCE has no track priority. It's using CN's tracks where freight trains are the boss. Any time there's delay for WCE you can bet it's caused by having to wait for one of the freight trains to clear. Translink couldn't improve WCE service even if they wanted to because they'll be at the mercy of CN.

Our entire rail network in Lower Mainland is designed for freight, even then the infrastructure is showing its age. New West bridge is a HUGE bottle neck and it's needs to be replaced and needs to be double track. Running passenger rail on a freight network will run into all sorts of logistical problems and affect reliability. WCE is an oddity and it only exists because CN allows it to exist.

Originally Posted by fredinno

Yeah, the conflict with freight would be my best guess as to why commuter rail is kind of a forgotten beast in Vancouver.


Is the lack of upgrades on the New West Bridge a sort of 'tragedy of the commons' thing? It's used by somewhere around 3 different rail lines...

WCE runs on CP Rail trackage, not CN. CN is on the south side of the Fraser River.