Rural Commuter Rail

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Someone who has no direct or indirect interest in a situation and files repeated complaints with government agencies is generally considered a nuisance. If I go to your neighbourhood with a measuring tape and file complaints about any flower beds that encroach on the city side of the property line, my actions would be considered by most people to be a nuisance, even if technically the encroachment breaks some rule.

How about another more appropriate example:

Say you intend to buy an empty lot in an established neighbourhood to build a new house and you come to find that your would-be neighbours have been dumping their trash on the lot you intend to purchase, so you file a complaint about illegal dumping.

Sure, your would-be neighbours would be annoyed because they're in trouble because you caught them, but that alone doesn't make you the bad guy.


If MOOSE started filling complaints about every single operational violation (i.e. missed signals, or something) then you'd have a good case.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

As far as that specific example goes, the City only owns the corridor, and the track is owned by Nylene Canada who I don't believe would have any problem in having their tracks upgraded.

Does Nylene own the track or do they just maintain them? According to this reference (search for "Nylene"), it says the later.

Yet this reference says "The Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton bought the right-of-way to perservie it as a long-term transport corridor and leased it to BASF's Arnprior-Nepean Railway (ANR). The ANR bought the rails and infrastructure and contracted with CN for their operation." It later says that Nylene now owns the ANR.

Either way, I am sure you are right and the ANR wouldn't object to having their tracks upgraded. The question is, under this arrangement, who would receive the revenue from a third party using the track.

The next question is will the remainder of the Beachburg Subdivison (from Nepean Junction to Federal) be purchased by either the ANR or the city (or both)?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

As far as that specific example goes, the City only owns the corridor, and the track is owned by Nylene Canada who I don't believe would have any problem in having their tracks upgraded.

Can tracks be upgraded without any input or consent from the corridor owner?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

How about another more appropriate example:

Say you intend to buy an empty lot in an established neighbourhood to build a new house and you come to find that your would-be neighbours have been dumping their trash on the lot you intend to purchase, so you file a complaint about illegal dumping.

Sure, your would-be neighbours would be annoyed because they're in trouble because you caught them, but that alone doesn't make you the bad guy.


If MOOSE started filling complaints about every single operational violation (i.e. missed signals, or something) then you'd have a good case.

Ok, using that example it would be like if I blogged about my intentions to buy a house in Rockliffe but clearly had no resources to do so, but I still went to Rockliffe and called bylaw on people there.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Does Nylene own the track or do they just maintain them? According to this reference (search for "Nylene"), it says the later.

Yet this reference says "The Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton bought the right-of-way to perservie it as a long-term transport corridor and leased it to BASF's Arnprior-Nepean Railway (ANR). The ANR bought the rails and infrastructure and contracted with CN for their operation." It later says that Nylene now owns the ANR.

Either way, I am sure you are right and the ANR wouldn't object to having their tracks upgraded. The question is, under this arrangement, who would receive the revenue from a third party using the track.

The next question is will the remainder of the Beachburg Subdivison (from Nepean Junction to Federal) be purchased by either the ANR or the city (or both)?

I think Railterm is the company that performs the actual regular maintenance on essentially all of the tracks in the Ottawa area.

(That's a very cool link btw) It would seem that Nylene does own the tracks in the corridor, then they would be the ones compensated for the usage of the track.

It's possible that a new shortline railway will pop up (a la Ottawa Central, but probably not federally regulated) and fill the role of CN in Ottawa so we'll have to see what happens when CN formally files for discontinuance. Hopefully it doesn't go the way of the Beachburg Sub.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Can tracks be upgraded without any input or consent from the corridor owner?

Good question, I don't know.

Edit: If as described in roger1818's post above, if the corridor is leased out to the ANR/Nylene then it probably depends on their lease agreement.

[Truenorth00]

If my tenant wants to make changes to my condo, it can't be done without my permission. I can't see the CTA saying that's acceptable. That's a step beyond just commanding access.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I think Railterm is the company that performs the actual regular maintenance on essentially all of the tracks in the Ottawa area.

I think you are probably correct.

It would seem that Nylene does own the tracks in the corridor, then they would be the ones compensated for the usage of the track.

That is probably dependent on the lease agreement.

It's possible that a new shortline railway will pop up (a la Ottawa Central, but probably not federally regulated) and fill the role of CN in Ottawa so we'll have to see what happens when CN formally files for discontinuance. Hopefully it doesn't go the way of the Beachburg Sub.

The ANR could become that short line. It’s primary mandate would be to serve Nylene but it could also serve other customers.

Edit: If as described in roger1818's post above, if the corridor is leased out to the ANR/Nylene then it probably depends on their lease agreement.

True but I can’t imagine it prohibiting them from upgrading the track.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If my tenant wants to make changes to my condo, it can't be done without my permission. I can't see the CTA saying that's acceptable. That's a step beyond just commanding access.

Not sure what your point is (the CTA doesn’t own the land) but what your tenant can do a is dependent on the terms and conditions of the lease. Residential leases typically don’t allow modifications but comertial ones do allow some changes.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The ANR could become that short line. It’s primary mandate would be to serve Nylene but it could also serve other customers.

That could happen, but as it stands right now the ANR isn't in a position to do so.
Apparently the original act that created the ANR doesn't allow it to "conduct business as a common carrier" since all of that work was contracted out to CN.

https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-busin...ommittee-transcript-1992-jun-17#P61_3330

CN abandoned the Renfrew spur so the ANR was created so that rail operations could continue, but then that work was contracted out to CN anyway. (Or in other words: CN didn't want to the responsibility of maintaining the spur)

I wonder if it's possible that CN will continue to carry out the contracted work on behalf of the ANR. The ANR could purchase what's left of the Beachburg sub and Walkley Yard(?) so that CN could continue to operate on behalf of them. Actually, this seems like the most probably result, but the rest of the freight service provided by CN in the region (Kott, and the places out by Hawkesbury) would end... unless the ANR stepped in and contracted service out to CN in order to continue serving them.

[mxg308]

I've been reading this thread and it's quite entertaining. I agree with almost everyone here that MOOSE's plan is dead on arrival. However, in a hypothetical world the only line I could see remotely work is the Renfrew Spur (Nylene line) although the track would have to upgraded as it is the only line that serves any major population centres and places of employment. You could pilot a train leaving the Ottawa Train Station and run it to March and Carling and maybe even out to Arnprior with stops in Carp and maybe Galetta and Kinburn? The line connects with the Confederation Line at the Train Station and at Corkstown/Moodie and eventually at Woodroffe if Confederation gets extended past Baseline. It would also connect with the Trillium line near Mooney's Bay station. Not sure that would ever work but it could relieve some pressure from the Confederation line through downtown since it could provide an alternate route for DND and high tech employees going to Moodie or March Road as they could hop on at the Train Station. I guess it could also help people coming from the south who also need to go west without having to go downtown or to Bayview.

Edit: I realize that the city would have to negotiate with VIA as well.

[Truenorth00]

There's a lot of "what ifs" and speculation. And all of them ignore a fundamental problem for every investor: the business case.

There is none. For any of this. And hopefully, it stays that way.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

That could happen, but as it stands right now the ANR isn't in a position to do so.
Apparently the original act that created the ANR doesn't allow it to "conduct business as a common carrier" since all of that work was contracted out to CN.

https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-busin...ommittee-transcript-1992-jun-17#P61_3330

Interesting, but given the circumstance they certainly could apply for a change in status.

CN abandoned the Renfrew spur so the ANR was created so that rail operations could continue, but then that work was contracted out to CN anyway. (Or in other words: CN didn't want to the responsibility of maintaining the spur)

Now CN is not only discontinuing track they own, but are discontinuing access to track they don't own, so they are planning on moving out of Ottawa altogether.

I wonder if it's possible that CN will continue to carry out the contracted work on behalf of the ANR. The ANR could purchase what's left of the Beachburg sub and Walkley Yard(?) so that CN could continue to operate on behalf of them. Actually, this seems like the most probably result, but the rest of the freight service provided by CN in the region (Kott, and the places out by Hawkesbury) would end... unless the ANR stepped in and contracted service out to CN in order to continue serving them.

Possible, but since CN is discontinuing access to the Alexandria subdivision, the current plan won't even allow them to run trains to Walkley (though granted that could change). If CN is no longer running regular trains from Montreal to Ottawa, that would mean Nylene would have to pay CN to run specials from Montreal, which would be much more expensive.

A better option might be to have CP take over and run specials from Smiths Falls (via Ottawa). The ANR would still need to purchase the Beachburg Subdivision and the Walkley Yard for this.

If that ends up happening, the ANR could instead try to re-activate the abandoned part of the Brockville Subdivision (from Smiths Falls to Arnprior) and add a piece of connecting track to make for a shorter trip, and abandon most of the Renfrew Sub. This would have a large up front cost, but would save money in operations over the long term.

I updated my map of "Track CN Plans to Discontinue" to include ROWs abandoned since 1983 and how a connection could be made between the Renfrew and Brockville subs.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Interesting, but given the circumstance they certainly could apply for a change in status.

For sure, but then they would need to obtain switchers and deal with vehicle maintenance and I can't imagine Nylene is interested in doing that.

Now CN is not only discontinuing track they own, but are discontinuing access to track they don't own, so they are planning on moving out of Ottawa altogether.

Possible, but since CN is discontinuing access to the Alexandria subdivision, the current plan won't even allow them to run trains to Walkley (though granted that could change). If CN is no longer running regular trains from Montreal to Ottawa, that would mean Nylene would have to pay CN to run specials from Montreal, which would be much more expensive.

If my interpretation of the arrangement is correct, when CN does its runs to Arnprior, it does so on behalf of the ANR and so as long as the ANR has running rights CN would be permitted to continue running its trains (on behalf of the ANR).
But you're right about it likely being more expensive.

A better option might be to have CP take over and run specials from Smiths Falls (via Ottawa). The ANR would still need to purchase the Beachburg Subdivision and the Walkley Yard for this.

CP would definitely be a good option since they have a yard in Smiths Falls. I don't think they would need to purchase the Walkley Yard for that to work since CP could just base its ANR operations out of their yard in Smiths Falls.

I wonder if QGRY would be another option... although they aren't federally regulated and the PoW bridge is still a mess (let alone freight access on the Trillium Line ) Maybe Genesse and Wyoming could buy up the ANR and send some QGRY (or other) switchers out this way.

If that ends up happening, the ANR could instead try to re-activate the abandoned part of the Brockville Subdivision (from Smiths Falls to Arnprior) and add a piece of connecting track to make for a shorter trip, and abandon most of the Renfrew Sub. This would have a large up front cost, but would save money in operations over the long term.

I updated my map of "Track CN Plans to Discontinue" to include ROWs abandoned since 1983 and how a connection could be made between the Renfrew and Brockville subs.

That's a lot of track to re-lay just to serve one customer. It has its benefits, but I doubt that those benefits would outweigh the costs, even in the long run.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

For sure, but then they would need to obtain switchers and deal with vehicle maintenance and I can't imagine Nylene is interested in doing that.

Most likely you are correct.

If my interpretation of the arrangement is correct, when CN does its runs to Arnprior, it does so on behalf of the ANR and so as long as the ANR has running rights CN would be permitted to continue running its trains (on behalf of the ANR).
But you're right about it likely being more expensive.

I guess that is possible, but I suspect it would be cost prohibitive to run such a special with all the track costs.

CP would definitely be a good option since they have a yard in Smiths Falls. I don't think they would need to purchase the Walkley Yard for that to work since CP could just base its ANR operations out of their yard in Smiths Falls.

Maybe not the whole yard, but they would probably at least need a run-around loop to move the engine to the front of the train when switching from the Smiths Falls to the Beachburg Sub. Which makes me wonder, how do they do that at Nylene since they don't have a run-around loop? Do they have a hump or some other way of moving the cars without a locomotive?

I wonder if QGRY would be another option... although they aren't federally regulated and the PoW bridge is still a mess (let alone freight access on the Trillium Line ) Maybe Genesse and Wyoming could buy up the ANR and send some QGRY (or other) switchers out this way.

I was thinking the same thing, but didn't mention it because I figured CP might be a better option.

CP could also take on the deliveries to Synagri in Richmond.

That's a lot of track to re-lay just to serve one customer. It has its benefits, but I doubt that those benefits would outweigh the costs, even in the long run.

Agreed. It is a bit of a long shot for 2 round trip trains a week. It might have been a different story a few years ago, before the track was torn up.

[JohnnyRenton]

So after 7 years of watching this whole Moose ordeal I couldn’t hold back anymore and had to leave a few thoughts about it.

I’ll start out by saying that there are at least a dozen reasons why Moose will fail, but I am not going to focus on the ones specific to the Moose plan, just the ones about commuter rail in general. And I don’t have anything against commuter rail, or a private commuter rail company. In fact I think both could/will be a good thing for the NCR in the near future. But right now, commuter rail doesn’t make sense, and it will take a few, pretty major projects, and important realizations, before the moment is right for it.

1. The Trillium line ROW is far too valuable as an LRT line to be given up, or even slightly compromised, for commuter rail.

No LRT line in Ottawa is going to spur as much high density, urban, development as the Trillium Line. Yes, the Confederation line will go through Hintonburg, Tunneys Pasture, Westboro, etc. But these are all pretty well established neighbourhoods that are also somewhat resistant to change which means there is going to be a slow burn of new development (I also know that Lebreton Flats is the exception along that line). The change along many sections of the Trillium Line, however, will be fast and massive in scale.

The Trillium Line runs through a big part of Ottawa’s industrial history, which means there are now a lot of brownfields, and under-utilized urban areas, that are ready for development. If you follow even the first section of the line from Bayview to Carling you can see the vein of urbanity that it is going to be created, even when you only take into account the projects under construction or proposed today, let alone what else comes online in the next 5 to 10 years. (The re-development potential around Walkley, Greensboro, and South Keys, and connections to Carelton University, and the airport are also valuable aspects of the line). This corridor of growth is critical to Ottawa, and its because this corridor is being connected by an LRT line, providing fast local transit service, that connects it to downtown and other neighbourhoods, that this growth is, and will continue to take place. Commuter rail would just bypass most of these places, and have a frequency that would make it a pointless option. If anything put into jeopardy the future of a Trillium Line that was equivalent to the Confederation Line, you would see development arrested along it very quickly.

Yes, the city is doing its usual thing where they debate and discuss and consult for what seems like forever. But, they will also likely do their usual thing of one day getting it together and putting together a proper LRT plan for Trillium Line which will send development flying. The city knows how valuable the line is to urban development and the transportation network of the city, and there is not a chance they are going to let it be compromised in the slightest. Commuter rail on this line, in any shape or form, is a non-starter.

2. Ottawas rail network in the more central parts of the city is rubbish and totally unsuitable for commuter rail

As it stands right now Ottawa only has two rail stations. One at the cities edge in Barrhaven, and Tremblay, a central station which is a final destination for nobody. There are no rail connections to Gatineau (a sizeable, underserved population). And there is no rail station downtown.

Even if the city decided that the Trillium line wasn’t all that important (which it is), you still have a constrained line which doesn’t go downtown (Bayview is kind of close, but not really). While it would serve Gatineau, the same problem exists on that side of the river in that it would skirt around the downtown area.

The only reason the existing rail network kind of works is because intercity VIA travel brings in different people/travellers. Its not a big deal to have to carry on a while after your journey to the train station if you are coming for a few days, or you’ve already been travelling for a few hours, or more. But commuting is different. You do it every single weekday, almost every week of the year, and minutes matter. Most people don’t take commuter rail because they just really like trains, or want to virtue signal that they care about the environment and sustainable development and all sorts of other things (those people are going to buy a Tesla to do that). People take it because it’s a faster commute, or cheaper, or some combination of those and other very practical factors. A commuter rail network that feeds into Tremblay is going to provide those benefits to very few people.

3. Like LRT, building a proper, modern commuter rail network is going to be very, very expensive, when the time is actually right for commuter rail

Everyone here likely remembers the debates surrounding upgrading the Transitway to LRT in the early 2000’s. The cost was high, which scared a lot of people off. This lead to a “compromise/more affordable” plan that had LRT running on surface streets through downtown Ottawa, instead of in a tunnel. Luckily that was killed off, because for obvious reasons that would have been stupid. Since then LRT has pushed forward with a plan that is modern, and doesn’t make any tradeoffs. Yes, it means it is a lot more expensive, but for a city that is continuing to grow, and will keep doing so for the foreseeable future, it is the only way.

Commuter rail is the exact same. When the time is right for commuter rail (more on this below), it will be part of a very costly endeavour to actually serve central Ottawa and Gatineau with proper rail connections. This means tunnels, downtown stations, electrification, etc. It will allow the Gatineau side to finally have access to passenger and commuter rail services. It will involve the cooperation of two cities, two provinces, the federal government, and the NCC.

In short, it will likely be one of the biggest engineering projects the NCR has seen. And it won’t be commuter rail to Wakefield or Arnprior that fuels it. It will be intercity passenger rail that does. Which will also mean that when commuter rail does start to take shape, it could well be VIA providing the first commuter services along its existing lines. Then, communities that are on older rail lines, lines that will need additional capital investment to, most likely rebuild or heavily, upgrade to modern standards can be explored as potential places to expand commuter rail too.

But this is all decades out. Commuter rail needs to grow on the backbone of a strong intercity rail network, and Ottawa doesn’t have that right now, nor is it in the cards at the moment.

………….


Ottawa is a city in transition. Think about how different parts of the city will look when someone in 2023 is looking back to what it was in 2013. LRT will have 2 phases of construction done, and become a ubiquitous part of how people travel around parts of Ottawa. You will have all the urban development undertaken as part of the Zibi and Lebreton projects, construction along the Trillium Line, especially from Bayview to Dows Lake, and all the urban development in existing neighbourhoods. Ottawa is at a crossroads where it is becoming a big city. This is exciting because big thinkers can contribute forward thinking ideas that will help the city move grow in positive ways. But like any city in transition, timing can be tough to judge, and sometimes the big ideas being tossed around aren’t quite ready for primetime. Commuter rail is one of those ideas.

Ultimately Moose will fail because even a well backed, government subsidized commuter rail service wouldn’t succeed if it was launched on the existing rail network. What is needed for anyone to have a chance to succeed are massive, government funded, capital investments in new infrastructure to bring a modern rail network to the central part of Ottawa and into Gatineau.

I genuinely think that in the next 5 to 10 years intercity rail (aka VIA rail in the Quebec-Windsor corridor), will be a topic that isn’t just vaguely discussed when it gets close to Federal elections. Modernizing that corridor is around the corner (again, it took time for investing in it to make sense, and that time is almost here). And in the Ottawa context this will fuel regional governments to look at how that could help Ottawa and Gatineau, especially when it comes to dealing with the challenging subject of interprovincial commuting and travelling in the NCR.

I like Moose for trying something different. But it’s dead in the water. It might have hd a small chance of working with Ottawas thinking 10 or 20 years ago, but not todays Ottawa.

[Allandale25]

^ Welcome. Good post. I've cross posted it here to the Moose thread on Urban Toronto.

[Truenorth00]

Great post. Welcome to the conversation. I wholeheartedly agree. This corridor offers massive potential for transit-oriented development. Passing that up to facilitate easier commutes from sprawling exurbs would be be some truly poor decision-making. Thankfully, it's not going to happen. Moose will never get past the talk stage.

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

There are no rail connections to Gatineau (a sizeable, underserved population).

Stay tuned on that, @JohnnyRenton ...

Here are the opposing Memoranda of Fact and Law from the Federal Court of Appeal Case No. A-198-18 (City of Ottawa v. Canadian Transportation Agency) in relation to the main line Ellwood Sub at Bayview and the Prince of Wales Bridge.

City of Ottawa v. Canadian Transportation Agency. Court File No. A-198-18. Memorandum of Fact and Law of the Appellant, submitted by City of Ottawa, 3 October 2018 (26 pgs). Appended is the cover page and table of contents of the Appeal Book (452 pgs). These documents can be viewed by appointment at Federal Court Administration Services, 90 Sparks Street, Ottawa. Tel: (613) 996-6795

City of Ottawa v. Canadian Transportation Agency. Court File No. A-198-18. Memorandum of Fact and Law of the Appellant, submitted by the Canadian Transportation Agency, 2 November 2018 (26 pgs).

MOOSE has posted these, as we have been doing with all public interest documents significant to this case, on the legal page of our website.

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

What is needed for anyone to have a chance to succeed are massive, government funded, capital investments in new infrastructure to bring a modern rail network to the central part of Ottawa and into Gatineau.

That "massive, government funded, capital investments in new infrastructure" was instead directed to the most expensive, least integrative approach. The fact that regional mobility was not on the agenda is why we created Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises. While we advance the business, considerable time has had to be dedicated to prevent government-funded, sometimes outright illegal, destruction of existing railway connections.

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

I like Moose for trying something different.

Thanks. The Greater National Capital Region now has 1.6M residents. The GTA had 1.5M in 1967 when it got the GO Train. At what level of regional population do YOU think regional rail should be put in place here? And by that time, after "x" more years of government-funded destruction of the existing railway connections, how do you imagine that might be accomplished?

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

[Allandale25]

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

Thanks. The Greater National Capital Region now has 1.6M residents. The GTA had 1.5M in 1967 when it got the GO Train. At what level of regional population do YOU think regional rail should be put in place here? And by that time, after "x" more years of government-funded destruction of the existing railway connections, how do you imagine that might be accomplished?

Joseph Potvin

Apples and orange comparison. It "got" the GO train on one route that had existing passenger rail service and it took decades to expand from that point. The population density and commuter pattern to the central core with Union at the centre was a helpful factor. Also, it actually had support and funding of the Provincial government.

So throwing out one number and saying the Ottawa Region is just like the GTA is simplistic and lazy.

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by Allandale25

simplistic and lazy.

@Allandale25 Try answering the question. "At what level of regional population do YOU think regional rail should be put in place here? And by that time, after "x" more years of government-funded destruction of the existing railway connections, how do you imagine that might be accomplished?"

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com