Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW) 1.0

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

As a result, I wouldn't be surprised if Montreal-Ottawa is nowadays Greyhound's most profitable route. I have a colleague who commutes daily into Ottawa from the West Island. He says there's 20 other people with him every day doing the same thing Monday-Friday.

With all the construction going on in Montreal, Greyhound is running terribly late (far worse than VIA). Last summer I had to go to a funeral on the west island and the train schedule didn't work (only 3 trains a day on Saturdays) so I caught a bus from Dorval. If I remember correctly, I arrived at 4:40 and was able to catch the 4:00 departure and even then had to wait about 15 minutes for it.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by roger1818

With all the construction going on in Montreal, Greyhound is running terribly late (far worse than VIA). Last summer I had to go to a funeral on the west island and the train schedule didn't work (only 3 trains a day on Saturdays) so I caught a bus from Dorval. If I remember correctly, I arrived at 4:40 and was able to catch the 4:00 departure and even then had to wait about 15 minutes for it.

For the day trippers like my colleague who catch the 6am bus, the traffic isn't bad enough yet to affect him and the other commuters.

[OTSkyline]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You cross-shop airports that 500km apart and think a 1 hr train ride is the problem???

And yet people have no issues taking the airline coaches to Dorval for over an hour after a transatlantic flight.

It's not just about savings. It's also about the destinations offered and convenience. It's not like YOW has a wide selection of destinations offered. So there's a high probability you have to connect. Except there's Oneworld or SkyTeam airlines in Canada which will fly you between Ottawa and Toronto or Ottawa and Montreal to connect. So now you just hop and the train and take the flight you want from Montreal.

I've flown to US, Europe, India, Central America and what I'm saying is IF there was a significant cost savings from flying in/out of YUL or YYZ, then yes I would consider it, but from my experience the price out of YOW has always been the best or about $50 more (including a YOW-YYZ-— type routing), but gas, parking and time to get to Toronto or Montreal amount to much more than that.

I've had to stop at YUL once on my way back from a trip. I'm being generous if it took 40 min gate-to-gate and I didn't have a 1 or 2h wait at the airport.

I frequently have to stop in YYZ on my way to or from a trip. Yes, it's annoying and I'd rather have a direct flight out of Ottawa but there are so many daily flights between YOW-YYZ (and its usually 1h gate-to-gate for the flight itself) that I don't see the major issue. Often time I book a flight with a comfortable 2ish hours of buffer in YYZ just in case, but with basically 1 flight on the hour, as soon as I land at Pearson from my destination I usually go straight to the next Ottawa-bound flight (with either AC or WJ or whoever I'm flying) and ask to be on standby, 9/10 I get on the very next one and I only end up waiting at Pearson maybe 20 minutes.

So yes, I'd rather pay for the flight to Ottawa with a stop in Toronto (30 min wait, 1h flight) than to have to book a separate bus/train to/from Ottawa-Montreal and add another 1:30 - 2:30 hrs to my trip back.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I've had to stop at YUL once on my way back from a trip. I'm being generous if it took 40 min gate-to-gate and I didn't have a 1 or 2h wait at the airport.

I didn't make up the 47 minute flight time. It came from AC's flight pg. 75 of AC's flight timetable. As you can see there are only 9 flights weekdays (7 on Saturdays and 10 on Sundays). As for the wait, you might have been lucky that one time, but I have vetoed the option of a flight because of a long wait.

So yes, I'd rather pay for the flight to Ottawa with a stop in Toronto (30 min wait, 1h flight) than to have to book a separate bus/ get a codeshare boarding pass (possibly at no extra cost from the airline) train to/from Ottawa-Montreal and add another 1:30 - 2:30 hrs to my trip back get back in the same time without any risk of weather delays (30 min wait, 1h train ride from YUL).

fixed it for you.

[Truenorth00]

How many of you guys work for AC or have status on there? That's about the only way to defend the lock that AC has on YOW.

I will be quite happy to have a rail service to break that spell. And make YUL and YOW, both more attractive for more carriers in the process.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

How many of you guys work for AC or have status on there? That's about the only way to defend the lock that AC has on YOW.

I will be quite happy to have a rail service to break that spell. And make YUL and YOW, both more attractive for more carriers in the process.

It is an airport thread and full of airplane buffs. They would take a significant detour just so that they could fly on an airplane. A extra connection increases the chance that they can fly on a new type of plane. We should probably move the discussion to a more appropriate thread.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I said destinations, not flights.

Cool. I meant both, actually, because they're both important things. It kills me that we no longer have a late departure/night arrival from ORD, for example. I'd love that extra frequency.

Currently when travelling to a city without direct service from Ottawa, we have little choice but to accept a connection and AC knows that and will force a connection in YYZ, even if there is enough demand for a direct flight, because it is better for them. If you give people a better option with other airlines, the loss of modal share will encourage AC to provide more options to YOW.

In dreamland, maybe. In reality, you people boarding flights in Mtl (Mtl as flight origin) are telling AC to further bolster the hub there and AC will undercut pricewise and/or add frequencies there to compete. They have no idea you're coming from Ottawa. Well, maybe they do via alternate means, but you're not being counted using the classic method as coming from Ottawa.

The only way we get more flights destinations here is by achieving a critical mass that can no longer be ignored. You can "give a — about your city" by commencing your air journey here that way you are captured as a YOW originating passenger.

Which train numbers are you taking bi-weekly that are running "empty?" I only take the train to Montreal a few times a year, but when I do, it may not always be full, but it isn't anywhere close to empty either.

I habitually take train 22 out and 39 (sometimes 37) in, days vary. I'd be shocked if the average load factor of these is >70%. If you can't habitually achieve >80% LF on your first train out and last train in, you've got a dearth in demand.

Fair enough. It was a knee-jerk reaction to your "give a — about our city" comment and I apologize. In my mind, if we truly love our city, we should be promoting multiple modes of transportation to make it as easy as possible for people to visit us and not put YOW on this pedestal as the only gateway to Ottawa. Air is a very expensive and inefficient way of travelling short distances (under 600 km), so we should be encouraging other modes of transport to save YOW for destinations that air is best at.

There's no need to apologize I just found the comment curious especially if anyone has followed my posting history on this topic.

BTW, nobody with a brain is travelling the short distance to Mtl by train and terminating there. They're continuing onto another flight and this hub/spoke structure is the basis for all of commercial aviation. As said earlier, the only way a spoke gets some love is if there's a critical mass that can't be ignored. Every person with the bad habit of Mtl flying (i.e. Mtl flight as origin) that we recover is a step forward toward this. That plus continued growth in our industries (mainly tech) will get us more.

Also BTW, this is the YOW thread and so YOW is on the pedestal, by definition.

I neither work for AC nor have status on it. My status is with United, so still Star Alliance, but I avoid AC as much as possible.

[YOWflier]

Also BTW, for those of you implying that airlines galore will begin slapping codeshares on VIA rail so that we Ottawans can book a seamless journey on whatever airline to wherever, tell me how many such codeshares exist on current VIA service?

And even if that were to happen thanks to HFR, remind us again how this will result in a net increase in flights destinations from YOW, especially considering these airlines are either allied, or operating in joint venture (or both)? It'll just further bolster the operations of the other airport and all you'll achieve is a dilution of the feed into two different modes.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Also BTW, for those of you implying that airlines galore will begin slapping codeshares on VIA rail so that we Ottawans can book a seamless journey on whatever airline to wherever, tell me how many such codeshares exist on current VIA service?

You seem to lack any vision beyond current practice.

Honest question. Have you ever traveled substantially in Europe or Asia? I ask cause you seem to be wedded to ideas that in many other places would be considered odd.

Nobody is going to invest billions in HFR and not design a different business and service delivery model to go with it. And when talking about integration with aviation, nobody would build a line with a station at a hub airport and not take advantage.

Originally Posted by ac888yow

And even if that were to happen thanks to HFR, remind us again how this will result in a net increase in flights destinations from YOW, especially considering these airlines are either allied, or operating in joint venture (or both)? It'll just further bolster the operations of the other airport and all you'll achieve is a dilution of the feed into two different modes.

By growing Ottawa. Make Ottawa more accessible to Montreal and businesses will have both a larger market and a larger pool of employees. It makes Ottawa a reasonable alternative to Montreal itself.

And as the city grows (both with population and GDP), airlines will have a reason to offer more direct service. Air Canada may want to stuff more pax through YUL and YYZ. But other airlines will want to offer direct service. American carriers will want you to fly through their hubs. European LCCs can push for TATL with new narrowbodies. Etc.

Great example here is Baltimore-Washington DC. BWI still has decent connections despite being only an hour's drive from IAD. Because, Baltimore is actually a city that is reasonably developed. And it's done that in no small measure by being a great alternative to Washington DC itself.

Train service doesn't seem to stop airlines from serving nearby cities elsewhere. I am curious why you think this would not be the case here. For example, Emirates serves both Dusseldorf and Frankfurt in Germany. Those two cities are 226 km, about 1.5 hrs by high speed rail. Quite similar to Ottawa and Montreal. Ditto service to both Glasgow and Edinburgh by many airlines, or Bologna and Venice, etc.

[YOWflier]

Nobody is going to invest billions in HFR and not design a different business and service delivery model to go with it. And when talking about integration with aviation, nobody would build a line with a station at a hub airport and not take advantage.

There's a VIA station at Dorval already. I repeat: please list all current codeshares on VIA allowing seamless ticketing and travel on Mtl flights. I'll wait.

By growing Ottawa. Make Ottawa more accessible to Montreal and businesses will have both a larger market and a larger pool of employees. It makes Ottawa a reasonable alternative to Montreal itself.

It already is that for a variety of reasons. There is no accessibility issue. Again, solution looking for a problem.

And as the city grows (both with population and GDP), airlines will have a reason to offer more direct service. Air Canada may want to stuff more pax through YUL and YYZ. But other airlines will want to offer direct service. American carriers will want you to fly through their hubs. European LCCs can push for TATL with new narrowbodies. Etc.

.

We agree on the this and I already stated all of this. What we don't agree on is the "power" of a few more trains to propel this growth. It's potent kool aid. This isn't Europe nor Asia no matter how hard people dream of it being so.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

There's a VIA station at Dorval already. I repeat: please list all current codeshares on VIA allowing seamless ticketing and travel on Mtl flights. I'll wait.

Yup, VIA already does with Maritime Bus, GO Transit and EXO, no excuses to not offer it with others.

And there's a free shuttle at that station. I always fly from YUL now.

[CityTech]

The real downside of YOW compared to YUL or YYZ is that if you're travelling outside of North America and unwilling to transit through the US (an awful experience), you're basically forced to use Air Canada / Star Alliance. It would be really helpful if WestJet joined one of the alliances, would make getting useful/affordable itineraries from YOW much easier.

[YOWflier]

Yeah that Dorval station and the rickety shuttle is great if you enjoy traveling as a second class citizen.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Yeah that Dorval station and the rickety shuttle is great if you enjoy traveling as a second class citizen.

Good prep for the flight, no?

[YOWflier]

Haha. Well played.

[mxg308]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

We agree on the this and I already stated all of this. What we don't agree on is the "power" of a few more trains to propel this growth. It's potent kool aid. This isn't Europe nor Asia no matter how hard people dream of it being so.

I agree. Ottawa and eastern Canada is not the Europe or Asia. The same way someone said that we can't compare the BOS-WAS corridor.

I am also unsure why we need to marry Ottawa and Montreal? They are distinct cities in two different provinces with different industries and cultures. Isn't that what Trudeau Sr wanted to do with YMX? The problem in this country is that airlines only want to set up hubs in 3/4 cities and they all hub there. In the US only ORD, JFK and LAX have multiple airlines hub at one airport (of the US3).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

There's a VIA station at Dorval already. I repeat: please list all current codeshares on VIA allowing seamless ticketing and travel on Mtl flights. I'll wait.

The current service is neither reliable nor frequent enough to make a codeshare work. This will change with dedicated tracks.

Air France & KLM offers free buses from the Ottawa Train station to YUL (I gather that despite them now being the same companies, they have separate shuttles). That alone is low hanging fruit for VIA Rail. I am sure other carriers would also be interested.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by CityTech

The real downside of YOW compared to YUL or YYZ is that if you're travelling outside of North America and unwilling to transit through the US (an awful experience), you're basically forced to use Air Canada / Star Alliance. It would be really helpful if WestJet joined one of the alliances, would make getting useful/affordable itineraries from YOW much easier.

The only way to get the attention of WestJet is to actually contact them and complain about their woefully inadequate service at YOW...especially now that they have quite a few MAXes on property that are well within the range of YOW-DUB/GLA/CDG/LGW. Maybe point out to them that of all the traffic that's leaked to YUL from YOW, that NONE of it flows to them and how if they're having all this success at YHZ, think of the success they'd have from a metropolitan area with 3 times the population of Halifax. Point out how you fly AC by default due to WS not offering a nonstop out of YOW, but AC does....that even applies to YEG and YVR in winter. In fact, I'd encourage everyone on here that cares about adding more destinations at YOW to do the same.

Clearly the YOW Airport Authority can't get their attention, whereas the YHZ Airport Authority has hit home run after home run with WS.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The current service is neither reliable nor frequent enough to make a codeshare work. This will change with dedicated tracks.

Air France & KLM offers free buses from the Ottawa Train station to YUL (I gather that despite them now being the same companies, they have separate shuttles). That alone is low hanging fruit for VIA Rail. I am sure other carriers would also be interested.

It's the opposite... KLM and Air France take you into their system in Ottawa with no extra cost, meaning that Ottawa passengers pay Montreal prices. Now, tell me that Via will offer this service for free, knowing that they will most certainly need to raise their prices in order to be profitable.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nobody is going to invest billions in HFR and not design a different business and service delivery model to go with it. And when talking about integration with aviation, nobody would build a line with a station at a hub airport and not take advantage.

The challenge is that a successful business model must provide something more - an added value - at which this idea fails miserably. There is no extra benefit for YOW passengers... No saving in cost, no saving in time, no added simplicity. Imagine this: you're flying back from Rome - you've been travelling all day and are tired - and instead of sitting in an airport lounge sipping on a beer as you wait for your YOW flight, you need to walk with your luggage across a large airport to reach your train to Ottawa, where upon your arrival, you still have to take a cab home or to a hotel... It makes no sense.