Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by scryer

This is a project that addresses the needs of the Lower Mainland's second largest city (by population) and it connects both of the largest cities seamlessly.

It doesn't address Surrey's needs as it bypasses Surrey's two largest neighbourhoods. It'd be like having SkyTrain go down Marine Drive in Burnaby and skipping Metrotown and Edmonds. And Surrey and Vancouver are already connected with SkyTrain.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by scryer

Nothing beats out skytrain to UBC. Not by a long-shot. I'm willing to bet that the Mayor's council will eventually redirect the LRT funds from Surrey to help pay for the extension out to UBC, and that Surrey will agree to this so long as the Mayor of Vancouver is willing to support Skytrain in Surrey. I already called the LRT getting scrapped, years ago and I have a feeling that the Vancouver and Surrey mayors are playing a little game of "scratch my back and I'll scratch your's".

Potential ridership is a very fragile crutch to lean on here. They speculated the same thing about the Canada Line, and look at what happened. They said rider-ship was poor on the Millennium line and it has been increasing year by year (as far as I know, someone can correct me if I'm wrong), and I'm not even going to get into how it will increase once it extends out west. The entire Skytrain model has always been about building for the future. This is a project that addresses the needs of the Lower Mainland's second largest city (by population) and it connects both of the largest cities seamlessly. Does induced demand ring any bells here?

Not only that but there is also a B-line bus (if I remember correctly) that will be introduced in 2019 that goes down Fraser Valley. So if you are looking for ridership specifically, you'll have to wait until we get the data from that new route .

Absolutely. And when it does well, then we can use its net income to help pay for increased SoF service, North Shore SkyTrain and all kinds of other projects. "High cost, high reward" always pays off with rapid transit.

Originally Posted by CanSpice

It doesn't address Surrey's needs as it bypasses Surrey's two largest neighbourhoods. It'd be like having SkyTrain go down Marine Drive in Burnaby and skipping Metrotown and Edmonds. And Surrey and Vancouver are already connected with SkyTrain.

If Metrotown was on Lougheed and Edmonds on Marine Drive, the Expo would probably skip them too.

They're not exactly neglected - the BRT provides the same level of service as the LRT (and much better than Broadway), so there's nothing stopping Newton or Guildford from proceeding with their redevelopment plans anyway.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Is everybody ignoring where the extra Billion dollars will come from? I don't get it. Did we forget the last ~10 year struggle to get funding for what was proposed?

I support Skytrain, and I'm glad LRT won't be built. I don't see how a business case of a line to Langley beats out Skytrain to UBC, Gondola to SFU, Rail transit on the North Shore, or a dozen other pet projects.

There's hardly any ridership. This will be worse that the M-Line was in 2001.

Some of that extra Billion may come from only having to build one OMC centre for the Millenium line extension UBC and Surrey Extensions as well as the space allocation for the new train sets that are being delivered as we speak and into the better part of 2019. Translink was going to have to build a few OMC's especially if that LRT plan went ahead. Now that the LRT is cancelled they can make the spending more efficient and that can benefit everyone. There is also an election coming and I imagine a little more money from the Feds may come online to make up for the shortfall. I wonder though if they could combine both extensions on a single RFP to see if the company that bid can give a better deal considering they would build out both extensions at the same time. There is only a little section that will be elevated in Vancouver and a lot more elevated track in Surrey so those modules could be all cast the same time to save cost. Also, purchasing tracks and cars, as well as track ties in larger volumes, could be a saving for the project.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

It doesn't address Surrey's needs as it bypasses Surrey's two largest neighbourhoods. It'd be like having SkyTrain go down Marine Drive in Burnaby and skipping Metrotown and Edmonds. And Surrey and Vancouver are already connected with SkyTrain.

This is a direct consequence of Surrey's uncontrolled sprawl.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

It doesn't address Surrey's needs as it bypasses Surrey's two largest neighbourhoods. It'd be like having SkyTrain go down Marine Drive in Burnaby and skipping Metrotown and Edmonds. And Surrey and Vancouver are already connected with SkyTrain.

True. Surrey's largest neighbourhoods don't get Skytrain this time.

But the Skytrain to Langley would give Surrey a rapid-transit spine that could be fed into with smart N-S bus routes that would connect EVERY neighbourhood to the Skytrain instead of it just being exclusive to Newton and Guildford. In fact, in a fantasy of mine, I would have the 96B line travel in one big square connecting Newton and Guildford to the proposed Expo extension at multiple points. While other routes would all change to strong N-S routes that feed passengers into the Skytrain extension at the Fraser Highway. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we still wouldn't need W-E bus lines.

Buses have an important role in a successful transit system too. And we're very fortunate in BC to be very fond of public transit.

[ronthecivil]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Most commuters from Langley either stay in Langley or commute to Surrey. Only a small fraction of commuters from Langley cross the Fraser. Same with Surrey commuters, most Surrey commuters stay within Surrey. Only about 25% go across the Fraser (and that's total commuters, which includes people who currently take transit).

Enough of those commuters go from city to city to thoughourly clog up almost every bridge in the region not to mention the routes that lead to them, many of which are though residential areas.

Why should other mayor care about traffic within Surrey? It makes much more sense to back projects that benefit the region, hence why it makes much more sense for regional mayors to back skytrain.

Try going down Brunnette into Surrey or Burnaby! There's enough intercity traffic to keep that whole interchange and area completely busy every day! That's reason enough for Coquitlam to vote for skytrain IMHO. Anything to keep regional traffic on transit is a good idea. Who cares about people that drive five minutes to work anyways?

[swimmer_spe]

Now that the LRT is essentially history, here is how I think the Skytrain will progress:

1) extension to UBC. This is the most important extension. This will aleviate the buses on Broadway.

2) Extension to Langley. This is likely at least 10-15 years off, but it is something that should be done.

3) Surrey area. Basically covering the LRT area.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

This is a direct consequence of Surrey's uncontrolled sprawl.

True. If Surrey had focused their growth toward densifying Whalley and Fleetwood instead of building all over the damn place, we wouldn't be having this argument.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

3) Surrey area. Basically covering the LRT area.

Hopefully with all the added revenue, plus prov/fed grants, there's enough room in the budget for it and North Van simultaneously. We do NOT need another either/or pissing contest.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Most commuters from Langley either stay in Langley or commute to Surrey. Only a small fraction of commuters from Langley cross the Fraser. Same with Surrey commuters, most Surrey commuters stay within Surrey. Only about 25% go across the Fraser (and that's total commuters, which includes people who currently take transit).

It is hard to judge commuting patterns because once a rapid transit mode like Skytrain is put in place, people adjust to it and start using it. Surrey commuters cross the Fraser a lot. The Pattullo and PMB are jammed all day long. November 15th is the day of the meeting with the other mayors. Let's see what happens there first.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

It is hard to judge commuting patterns because once a rapid transit mode like Skytrain is put in place, people adjust to it and start using it. Surrey commuters cross the Fraser a lot.

Yeah, but the survey is talking about straight to work and straight back, not recreational or business trips. I doubt SkyTrain is going to cause people to move or switch jobs.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Didn't the haters say the exact same thing about the Canada and the Evergreen? I don't see any difference with the Expo.

Regarding cost, we were given $1.7 billion for the Phase 2 Newton-Guildford tram, and promised however much more it would take for Phase 3 to Langley (estimated at $1.95 billion at the latest). That's $3.6B+ as opposed to the $2.9B for SkyTrain and BRT. All the funding is guaranteed, it's just that Phase 2 will stop at Fleetwood and continue to Langley in Phase 3.

I don't know anybody who seriously thought the Canada Line wouldn't have ridership. It has a spur into Richmond and the Airport. It was a no brainer. Only cheap idiots like Corrigan thought it was a bad idea.

The YVR line was originally forecast to be built right after Expo, I believe.

As for Evergreen, it connects some communities, but I have yet to see ridership data. It may be above the low forecasts, but it's nothing to get too excited about.

The M-Line was a joke for a decade. It probably led to people making lowball estimates about other potential lines.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I don't know anybody who seriously thought the Canada Line wouldn't have ridership. It has a spur into Richmond and the Airport. It was a no brainer. Only cheap idiots like Corrigan thought it was a bad idea.

The YVR line was originally forecast to be built right after Expo, I believe.

As for Evergreen, it connects some communities, but I have yet to see ridership data. It may be above the low forecasts, but it's nothing to get too excited about.

The M-Line was a joke for a decade. It probably led to people making lowball estimates about other potential lines.

104.2k/day last year on the Evergreen; give or take a few thousand trips this year, that's still enough to break even. Fraser Highway's population is much the same despite the forest and farms. Hardly amazing, I know, but the ridership is there.

The outcome of a route appears more to do with geometry and destination. The original Millennium was a joke because it looped back in on itself; it wasn't a circle line, it wasn't a radial or grid-completing line, and it wasn't very good as a branch or relief line. If it split off at Columbia toward the Evergreen route, that might've worked (wasn't that considered at one point, until Lougheed Mall said no?).

[xd_1771]

I'm just gonna leave this here...

[flipper316]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

How many trees will they have to cut down in Green Timbers Urban Forest for the SkyTrain?

Probably way more than Hawthorne Park. What's the point of this park anyway? It's a shell of its self with 3 major roads bisecting it, RCMP headquarters, the Jim Pattison place and another development beside it in the future.

[flipper316]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I'm just gonna leave this here...

Nice

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by flipper316

Probably way more than Hawthorne Park. What's the point of this park anyway? It's a shell of its self with 3 major roads bisecting it, RCMP headquarters, the Jim Pattison place and another development beside it in the future.

Tree huggers!!!

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

In all honesty I believe that the L-Line LRT would have never been cancelled if the LRT supporters didn’t push LRT onto the Fraser extension to Langley as well, especially without any public consolations. This is what really angered people I think. The sneaky nature of deciding the technology for the project. This election was the public’s chance to voice their opinion, and they chose Skytrain.

The LRT project was lacking support even on the L-line.

Originally Posted by scryer

Nothing beats out skytrain to UBC. Not by a long-shot. I'm willing to bet that the Mayor's council will eventually redirect the LRT funds from Surrey to help pay for the extension out to UBC, and that Surrey will agree to this so long as the Mayor of Vancouver is willing to support Skytrain in Surrey. I already called the LRT getting scrapped, years ago and I have a feeling that the Vancouver and Surrey mayors are playing a little game of "scratch my back and I'll scratch your's".




Potential ridership is a very fragile crutch to lean on here. They speculated the same thing about the Canada Line, and look at what happened. They said rider-ship was poor on the Millennium line and it has been increasing year by year (as far as I know, someone can correct me if I'm wrong), and I'm not even going to get into how it will increase once it extends out west. The entire Skytrain model has always been about building for the future. This is a project that addresses the needs of the Lower Mainland's second largest city (by population) and it connects both of the largest cities seamlessly. Does induced demand ring any bells here?

Not only that but there is also a B-line bus (if I remember correctly) that will be introduced in 2019 that goes down Fraser Valley. So if you are looking for ridership specifically, you'll have to wait until we get the data from that new route .

You can't just redirect funds; plus, the amount of money left over by a truncation in Fleetwood is not enough to extend the Broadway Extension beyond Arbutus (maybe to Macdonald St. at most), anyways. It's more likely to see that money go to a B-line on the L-line route, from Guildford, to Newton.

I honestly still prefer the RRT3 option, but the plans for RRT1 were already laid out to a high level of detail, and there's no push for RRT3, so I'm expecting it to become the Hwy 91 of SOF Transit. Oh well.

Also, where do they expect $1 billion to extend to land into their hands from? I'm all for extending to Langley, but I don't understand how they're expecting $1 Billion to fall out of thin air?

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Some of that extra Billion may come from only having to build one OMC centre for the Millenium line extension UBC and Surrey Extensions as well as the space allocation for the new train sets that are being delivered as we speak and into the better part of 2019. Translink was going to have to build a few OMC's especially if that LRT plan went ahead. Now that the LRT is cancelled they can make the spending more efficient and that can benefit everyone. There is also an election coming and I imagine a little more money from the Feds may come online to make up for the shortfall. I wonder though if they could combine both extensions on a single RFP to see if the company that bid can give a better deal considering they would build out both extensions at the same time. There is only a little section that will be elevated in Vancouver and a lot more elevated track in Surrey so those modules could be all cast the same time to save cost. Also, purchasing tracks and cars, as well as track ties in larger volumes, could be a saving for the project.

The cost for the Fraser extension included a new OMC for Skytrain. There's no real savings from the initial estimates, since Translink assumed a seamless extension already for Phase 2.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Hopefully with all the added revenue, plus prov/fed grants, there's enough room in the budget for it and North Van simultaneously. We do NOT need another either/or pissing contest.

I doubt it. any Skytrain to the North Shore, despite demand, would cost a fortune (Skytrain would have to go by the deepest part of Burrard Inlet due to the layout of the Expo Line (the only realistic choice to extend into North Van- Canada is too shallow), you would likely have to move the WCE rail station to fit a new tunnel extension, and Lonsdale Quay Station would likely still be a very deep station. I remember there was a thread way back, but I can't find it.

(I wonder if they'd put it down towards Lynn Hwy instead of the B-line route towards Ambleside considering the greater density on that corridor :/)

So yes, we will likely have an either/or pissing contest, sadly.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The outcome of a route appears more to do with geometry and destination. The original Millennium was a joke because it looped back in on itself; it wasn't a circle line, it wasn't a radial or grid-completing line, and it wasn't very good as a branch or relief line. If it split off at Columbia toward the Evergreen route, that might've worked (wasn't that considered at one point, until Lougheed Mall said no?).

I don't know if you were around then, but it was built by Glen Clark's NDP government, through a bunch of NDP ridings, including our friend Derek Corrigan who promptly said "fuck you, I've got mine" after Burnaby got 2 Skytrain lines.

They cheaped out in terms of the length of the route. It is the most useless part of the bigger picture, which was an E-W line from UBC to the Tri-Cities. So basically we built the dumbest 3rd of the line, and now (Evergreen) the middle 3rd, and we are bickering over building the most important portion (Broadway).

I don't see where that 104.2k figure comes from, unless you are adding all Evergreen stations. However it's clear the M/E-Line continues to lag significantly behind the Expo Line in terms of ridership. I'm not arguing it should not have been built, to be clear.

The Canada Line beats it handily, which should have been an obvious conclusion given its layout.

[Aroundtheworld]

^ I'm supportive of Skytrain to Langley, but I'm not seeing the 104k daily ridership on the Evergreen Line either. If I add up all the boardings at Evergreen Line stations and double it (to account for passengers getting off at those stations), I get about 36000 per day. For the entire Millennium Line, I get about 126.4 K per weekday (not including Commercial-Broadway boardings that transfer at Lougheed station to the Expo Line)

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by fredinno

The LRT project was lacking support even on the L-line.


You can't just redirect funds; plus, the amount of money left over by a truncation in Fleetwood is not enough to extend the Broadway Extension beyond Arbutus (maybe to Macdonald St. at most), anyways. It's more likely to see that money go to a B-line on the L-line route, from Guildford, to Newton.

I honestly still prefer the RRT3 option, but the plans for RRT1 were already laid out to a high level of detail, and there's no push for RRT3, so I'm expecting it to become the Hwy 91 of SOF Transit. Oh well.

Also, where do they expect $1 billion to extend to land into their hands from? I'm all for extending to Langley, but I don't understand how they're expecting $1 Billion to fall out of thin air?



I doubt it. any Skytrain to the North Shore, despite demand, would cost a fortune (Skytrain would have to go by the deepest part of Burrard Inlet due to the layout of the Expo Line (the only realistic choice to extend into North Van- Canada is too shallow), you would likely have to move the WCE rail station to fit a new tunnel extension, and Lonsdale Quay Station would likely still be a very deep station. I remember there was a thread way back, but I can't find it.



So yes, we will likely have an either/or pissing contest, sadly.

Don't politicians live for pissing contests?

There's nothing to say a Skytrain line to the North Shore would have to be tunnelled - it could just as easily be a bridge (we already have two Skytrain bridges) near one of the existing car bridges. It would still be crazy expensive.

LRT on the L Line was lacking support. The 96B (that it would have replaced) is nowhere near capacity. Maybe in a decade we can talk about upgrading it. Hopefully by then they'll have a more grid-like layout to their bus routes that will take some of the load that's currently being funnelled onto King George and 104th.

Maybe they have a magical unicorn that farts large amounts of money...