Amazon HQ2 thread

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Crawford

US News ranking is the standard, at least within US. And globally, in most disciplines, Michigan would be generally considered more prestigious than Toronto, both in terms of academics and social prestige.

US News' ranking is what Americans look to. We'll have to disagree about which school is more prestigious but it's not central to this discussion any way. Perhaps we should just move on.

[SIGSEGV]

The rankings probably measure different things (likely research output for the global ranking, which isnt super relevant for recruitment for most positions). However another thing to keep in mind is the pure number of graduates. MIT and Harvard are great but have small class sizes. You won't be able to fill most positions from them. Schools like Toronto, Waterloo, UCLA, UIUC, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc are probably better to have around overall.

[mhays]

Universities can be judged on a million things. Also there are different ideas about a university's mission, what counts as an "education," and so on.

Even if you trust the survey responses, it would be simple-minded to equate a magazine's rankings with some broad concept of quality or prestige.

That's why the magazine reports are reportedly scoffed at quite a bit in academic circles.

[bobdreamz]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Same here. When Detroit was eliminated, Amazon emphasized that its transit issues were a primary factor for it being eliminated. Since it's a big, cheap city that offered a ton of money, Amazon must be weighting transit very heavily, and might not care as much about tax incentives and cost of living. That would knock out pretty much all but the big cities.

I am surprised to see that Miami is still in the discussion. It seems an odd fit compared to what the other cities can offer. But Bezos did spend part of his adolescence there, so maybe it's a sentimental thing.

That could be a reason why Miami is still being discussed.
My office at the time was only 3 blocks away from where Bezos graduated from high school (one of the best in the county) and developed his concept for Amazon. It would of been interesting to see if he would have stayed in Miami instead of high tailing to Seattle.

[Shawn]

Bezos was chilling with his family in Kendall Square on Saturday. Had dinner at Sumiao Hunan Kitchen.

I still think Boston is off the table for a "Big HQ2", but something big is brewing.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by isaidso

US News' ranking is what Americans look to. We'll have to disagree about which school is more prestigious but it's not central to this discussion any way. Perhaps we should just move on.

I think the rankings are fine. The more relevant point is that UW would be more important to a company like Amazon than either Michigan or UofT. Amazon is already a major recruiter out of the campus, filling the void left by the slow death of RIM/Blackberry.

Young talent recruitment out of Toronto is non-issue, especially given the fact that every student from London to Mumbai would be given the green light with a job offer from Amazon.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Young talent recruitment out of Toronto is non-issue, especially given the fact that every student from London to Mumbai would be given the green light with a job offer from Amazon.

Agreed. Cities need to be appealing to educated talent; they don't necessarily have to attend university in immediate proximity to the employer.

Amazon became a behemoth despite no super-elite local university (Washington is very solid but is on no one's list of top U.S. institutions). The closest truly elite university is more than 800 miles distant.

[LouisVanDerWright]

Speaking of university rankings, here is the US News top 20:

1. Princeton, Princeton, NJ
2. Harvard, Cambridge, MA
3. Columbia, NY, NY
3. MIT, Cambridge, MA
3. University of Chicago, Chicago, IL
3. Yale, New Haven, CT
7. Stanford, Stanford, CA
8. Duke, Durham, NC
8. Penn, Philly, PA
10. Johns Hopkins, Baltimore, MD
10. Northwestern, Evanston, IL
12. Caltech, Pasadena, CA
12. Dartmouth, Hanover, NH
14. Brown, Providence, RI
14. Vanderbilt, Nashville, TN
16. Cornell, Ithaca, NY
16. Rice, Houston, TX
18. Notre Dame, Notre Dame, IN
19. UCLA, Los Angeles, CA
19. Washington University, St. Louis, MO


Of those top 20, only two remaining HQ2 finalists have multiple:

Chicago: 3 (U of C, NW, ND)
Boston: 2 (Hahvad and MIT)

If you look at availability of top talent, the Midwest is actually pretty dominant, the issue is many leave for the coasts because the opportunities haven't been there in the post-industrial Midwest like they once were. If you look at Chicago there's a massive amount of talent graduating in or very nearby every year. You have U of C, Northwestern, Loyola, DePaul, IIT, Columbia, and bunch of smaller schools directly within the city and then Notre Dame, Purdue, Marquette, and University of Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan State, Michigan, SLU, Wash U, Indiana, and dozens of smaller schools all within a 4 hour drive of the city.

Amazon choosing to locate somewhere like this, where they will be THE beacon of the tech world for the entire region makes sense if they are trying to attract and retain talent (especially because $100-200k goes about 3 or 4 times farther in the Midwest than on the coasts).

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I think the rankings are fine. The more relevant point is that UW would be more important to a company like Amazon than either Michigan or UofT. Amazon is already a major recruiter out of the campus, filling the void left by the slow death of RIM/Blackberry.

Young talent recruitment out of Toronto is non-issue, especially given the fact that every student from London to Mumbai would be given the green light with a job offer from Amazon.

How about being smack dab in the middle of all the big ten universities as well as having two top ten universities in your backyard?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Of those top 20, only two remaining HQ2 finalists have multiple:

Chicago: 3 (U of C, NW, ND)
Boston: 2 (Hahvad and MIT)

It isn't going to be an issue, and that makes no sense, either by city or metro.

Boston has none in city and 2 total in metro. Chicago has 1 in city and 2 total in metro (Notre Dame is in South Bend, which isn't part of CSA).

NYC has the most by metro, and 3 of the top 5, but, again, it isn't a factor. It isn't like a Wharton grad is harder to reach than a Columbia grad, as if recruitment is somehow tied to Census boundaries.

And obviously these schools aren't equally regarded. It isn't like Harvard is valued the same as Notre Dame just because they both fit within an arbitrary rankings cutoff.

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Amazon choosing to locate somewhere like this, where they will be THE beacon of the tech world for the entire region makes sense if they are trying to attract and retain talent (especially because $100-200k goes about 3 or 4 times farther in the Midwest than on the coasts).

And this is all crap. This is a back office, Amazon isn't a super-prestige employer, and a dollar is a dollar everywhere within national boundaries.

If they wanted cheap living, there are no remaining candidates except maybe Raleigh (which is still more expensive than national norms). Good schools and family-sized house for professional will run 500k+ in all these metros.

[Mentallect]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Speaking of university rankings, here is the US News top 20:

1. Princeton, Princeton, NJ
2. Harvard, Cambridge, MA
3. Columbia, NY, NY
3. MIT, Cambridge, MA
3. University of Chicago, Chicago, IL
3. Yale, New Haven, CT
7. Stanford, Stanford, CA
8. Duke, Durham, NC
8. Penn, Philly, PA
10. Johns Hopkins, Baltimore, MD
10. Northwestern, Evanston, IL
12. Caltech, Pasadena, CA
12. Dartmouth, Hanover, NH
14. Brown, Providence, RI
14. Vanderbilt, Nashville, TN
16. Cornell, Ithaca, NY
16. Rice, Houston, TX
18. Notre Dame, Notre Dame, IN
19. UCLA, Los Angeles, CA
19. Washington University, St. Louis, MO


Of those top 20, only two remaining HQ2 finalists have multiple:

Chicago: 3 (U of C, NW, ND)
Boston: 2 (Hahvad and MIT)

If you look at availability of top talent, the Midwest is actually pretty dominant, the issue is many leave for the coasts because the opportunities haven't been there in the post-industrial Midwest like they once were. If you look at Chicago there's a massive amount of talent graduating in or very nearby every year. You have U of C, Northwestern, Loyola, DePaul, IIT, Columbia, and bunch of smaller schools directly within the city and then Notre Dame, Purdue, Marquette, and University of Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan State, Michigan, SLU, Wash U, Indiana, and dozens of smaller schools all within a 4 hour drive of the city.

Amazon choosing to locate somewhere like this, where they will be THE beacon of the tech world for the entire region makes sense if they are trying to attract and retain talent (especially because $100-200k goes about 3 or 4 times farther in the Midwest than on the coasts).





How about being smack dab in the middle of all the big ten universities as well as having two top ten universities in your backyard?

Chicago has a massive amount of talent as any HR Director knows, but Amazon desires and eastern time zone which puts Chicago at a huge disadvantage.

[JManc]

The more boosterism I see from Chicago, the more I want to see a Walmart or a Dollar General distribution center built on the site of their proposed HQ2 location.

[JMKeynes]

Newark is a powerful contender. It's in the neighborhood of Columbia and Princeton, and within 75 miles of Penn and Yale.

It's a city with very good bones that could be utterly transformed by Amazon.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And this is all crap. This is a back office, Amazon isn't a super-prestige employer, and a dollar is a dollar everywhere within national boundaries.

This is another funny thing I find about this year long debate. Amazon has a pretty terrible reputation among university students/recent grads in my experience. I had classes with two guys in Waterloo who swore it off after doing a co-op term out there. A good friend actually moved out there after school and left for greener pastures after a year. As a junior programmer, he was essentially on call 24/7 for 3 weeks at a time like he was a surgeon or something. Worked more hours than any of his friends, but made less money than those at Nvidia, Google, Oracle etc.

There will be no shortage of people lining up for interviews wherever the HQ2 ends up, but Amazon's HR issues don't exist solely in the warehouses.

[skyscraperpage17]

Originally Posted by JManc

The more boosterism I see from Chicago, the more I want to see a Walmart or a Dollar General distribution center built on the site of their proposed HQ2 location.

[Jawnadelphia]

^You know Princeton is only 35 miles from Northeast Philly. (or 45 miles from Center City)... just saying.

[iheartthed]

If anything, this recruiting discussion about schools is an argument for Toronto. Who can't Amazon get with what it has right now? I doubt Amazon is having trouble recruiting from any school in the U.S. right now, and whatever trouble they might be having will not be fixed by them moving closer to certain schools. On the other hand, Amazon's recruiting pool gets considerably larger if they set up shop in Toronto...

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And this is all crap. This is a back office, Amazon isn't a super-prestige employer, and a dollar is a dollar everywhere within national boundaries.

If they wanted cheap living, there are no remaining candidates except maybe Raleigh (which is still more expensive than national norms). Good schools and family-sized house for professional will run 500k+ in all these metros.

^ I largely agree, although not as harshly as Crawford.

Amazon's HQ2 may very likely not end up living up to what they promised, which happens quite commonly in these headquarters/big office competitions.

I certainly don't expect HQ2 to be a "beacon of the tech world" or any of that nonsense. At the end of the day, it will still be a lot of jobs and good for the local economy. That's where I would put it.

[the urban politician]

Bezos said "Chill out" to a reporter today.

"Chill" starts with the 3 letters "Chi" just like "Chicago"

I think there is something brewing here...

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And this is all crap. This is a back office, Amazon isn't a super-prestige employer, and a dollar is a dollar everywhere within national boundaries.

It is if you're in tech, which is why they model their white collar people management similar to consulting firms and law firms. If you have Amazon on your resume it is a stamp of approval.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

If anything, this recruiting discussion about schools is an argument for Toronto. Who can't Amazon get with what it has right now? I doubt Amazon is having trouble recruiting from any school in the U.S. right now, and whatever trouble they might be having will not be fixed by them moving closer to certain schools. On the other hand, Amazon's recruiting pool gets considerably larger if they set up shop in Toronto...

They do really well recruiting 20-somethings to Seattle, but have a much harder time getting families. That's an argument for a cheaper US city.

I agree that Toronto has a strong point about international talent. They recruit heavily from overseas to Seattle, but they'd hire way more if they could.