Winnipeg | Portage and Main

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by rkspec

i'll see what i can find to back up what i heard.

Found it, FFW to 4:45 mark

https://globalnews.ca/video/4597341/...-6-oct-25-2018

Did you listen to it?

The city said the business owners have the chance to weigh in, but it's city property, so the city has the final say.

If the owners want to get petty, which it honestly sounds like they're willing to do – they could just close off their accesses and make it near impossible to cross the street, even underground.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by buzzg

If the owners want to get petty, which it honestly sounds like they're willing to do – they could just close off their accesses and make it near impossible to cross the street, even underground.

No chance they're going to do that. They have their own tenants to think of, and it's not like the current setup is a terrible drain on their bottom lines. Opening up the intersection is more of a long term play.

Guys like Armin M or Hartley R will get it done if they want to, but quietly and behind the scenes. They won't just show up in the concourse one Saturday morning with a pile of studs and plywood sheets to put up a wall and prove a point, although that would be an amusing scenario for sure.

[buzzg]

I would confidently bet that 80% (more likely even higher) of the underground traffic enters through the connected buildings, and not the public sidewalk entrances. They can keep their building entrances open during operating hours, and close them after.

--

Anyway, here's a great comment from a WFP poster that nails the whole issue with this plebiscite:

It would have been better to have delayed a plebiscite until detailed plan options were prepared. Plan 1 would cost _____ and affect traffic in the following 3 ways. Plan 2 would cost _____ etc... If it turns out that keeping the intersection closed costs more, the results of the vote might have been different.

That's the whole issue here. My mother's main argument for keeping it closed was the money could be better spent elsewhere... yet it's pretty clear it will cost more money to rebuild barricades then to just leave it open after all the repairs are done.

[rkspec]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Did you listen to it?

The city said the business owners have the chance to weigh in, but it's city property, so the city has the final say.

Geez, i totally interpenetrated that wrong.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by headhorse

I mean, on an issue like this, why? this is a scientific issue. I believe our transportation corridors should be planned by transportation experts. I believe our city should be designed by experts in urban planning. I believe engineers should design bridges. I believe climate scientists should determine climate policy. i believe experts should plan the economy.

why does the opinion of an uninformed minority matter in an material issue of facts and science? experts agree about climate change, we know about the costs of allocating so much infrastructure to cars (and the monetary deficit we have because of it), all of the people who are experts in their field tell us we need to make changes, yet this is what we're doing with our "democracy".

The referendum had nothing to do with democracy, other than the fact that it involved voting. Its effect is that now a decision by a small majority of Winnipeggers is going to have an impact on the decision-making process of the democratically-elected council. Had the City established rules for the referendum, which is commonly done, this could have been avoided. It's not uncommon to have a rule that says a certain percentage of turnout has to be attained for the results to have validity, for example 50 percent. The fact that the referendum was held on this issue was a travesty but a greater travesty is that i had no rules.

[optimusREIM]

Not a referendum though

[Ando]

Originally Posted by headhorse

stop bringing your "feelings" into this, our cities policies should be dictated by fact. you feel like you might be sad if you have to wait 10 more seconds in traffic. you feel like it might make you angry to just sit there and have to just sit hey? real tough story.

democracy to me is when we actually restrict access to places that people can be and things they can do.

i mean, this entire debacle was started by an undemocratic agreement, that's reason enough to reverse it. not some opinion of 25%~ of the voting population

I'm confident the anti-opening elitists will be defeated in the end.

[bomberjet]

The plebiscite is non-binding. Meaning there was zero point in holding the vote other than to rabble rouse.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Not a referendum though

Sorry, that's a little too cryptic for me to understand.

[Riverman]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plebiscite

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/referendum

[Wolf13]

Well, our dream isn't dead until the landlords agree to it... hopefully this discussion is massaged privately before a good plan can be made public again...

Originally Posted by headhorse

stop bringing your "feelings" into this, our cities policies should be dictated by fact. you feel like you might be sad if you have to wait 10 more seconds in traffic. you feel like it might make you angry to just sit there and have to just sit hey? real tough story.

democracy to me is when we actually restrict access to places that people can be and things they can do.

i mean, this entire debacle was started by an undemocratic agreement, that's reason enough to reverse it. not some opinion of 25%~ of the voting population

I love it when I agree with you, haha

Originally Posted by robertocarlos

I don't mind that it remains closed. I also think the accessibility issue is over-blown in that you can go the long ways around to cross P&M. The locked doors and broken elevator equipment inside the whole underground system is inexcusable. Especially the two lifts in 201, why didn't they just build a bridge.

This is what I don't get. We share opinions but also facts here.

Not only is it a hilarious imposition on the disabled, it's a great inconvenience for anyone. People cut across fields walk two steps at a time, or avoid stairs whenever possible. Human nature. We park as close to the grocery store as possible. Hell, parking demands in general paint a picture that appropriately describes our desire for convenience.

It's been said a billion times on here... it's not about how easy it is for someone familiar to walk around a couple blocks... it's also that tenants understand the human nature described above. They simply don't go to places without casual traffic immediately in front of them. A coffee or sandwich shop thrives on someone merely being nearby, and evaluating their need for such a product in the moment. Even jewelry stores like Birks hope for people to notice their product from the corner of their eyes, hence window shopping... if not now, it becomes a planned visit later.

In retail, everything is about attracting attention, and that's veto'd if you only attract pedestrians who already planned on visiting you. Tenants will refuse to sign leases if you have to walk up stairs or take elevators rather than walking in directly, or via escalator.

Location is key in real estate, and it means nothing without access. These aren't opinions, but proven theories.

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Open proponents, elitists and the left just can't seem to grasp the concept that you can walk a block over and cross both Portage and Main anywhere, anytime, so what's stopping you?

Right winger here. Let's not be that lame. And your last point is debunked above. I and others have debunked it... it's not just an opinion. See? Righties can be elitist too!

[drew]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Open proponents, elitists and the left just can't seem to grasp the concept that you can walk a block over and cross both Portage and Main anywhere, anytime, so what's stopping you?

Which is why the argument against opening it up makes no sense - at least in terms of traffic concerns.

"those pedestrians are gonna back traffic up in all directions!"

Because that is going to make any difference for the one "free flowing" intersection in the City - surrounded within a block in all directions by traffic lights and pedestrian crossings.

[rrskylar]

So the myth that downtown folk would overwhelmingly vote open turned out to be just that, a myth, with the open vote just slightly over 50%, all the urbanists slagging the suburbs over the vote have to eat a little crow when the vast majority of yes votes did in fact came from the suburbs!

[bomberjet]

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by drew

Which is why the argument against opening it up makes no sense - at least in terms of traffic concerns.

"those pedestrians are gonna back traffic up in all directions!"

Because that is going to make any difference for the one "free flowing" intersection in the City - surrounded within a block in all directions by traffic lights and pedestrian crossings.

A lot of you "only five minutes more", "just open it". just because" crowd seem to fail to realize that sure it's maybe only five minutes at Portage and Main but there is also the effect of backing up traffic further along Portage and Main so the five minutes at Portage and Main becomes five minutes more at Portage and Garry, five minutes more at Portage and Donald etc.

The truth is traffic is funneled through P & M, like it or not that's just the way it is and any delay creates a backup ripple effect both along Portage Ave. and Main St.!

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by windypeg

If we need to sell the suburbs on the idea of a walkable downtown

One intersection doesn't make a scratch of difference on if downtown Winnipeg is or is not walkable.

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

That's probably what's gonna happen. They're simply not going to "flatten" certain curbs for pedestrians, put a couple of steel bollards and chains, not paint crosswalk lines on the street, and call it a day.

That would be the least amount of money spent on the intersection, and when the time does come to open it, they'll just simply remove the bollards, "flatten" the curbs, paint the lines, and then add the signals and timers needed for the crosswalk.

I think you are pretty close to what will end up happening but instead of bollards as you suggest it is going to be the lovely grey, concrete jersey barriers like those "temporarily" installed around the police headquarters. Similar to the bollards though they could be removed relatively easily when the time comes.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Well none of the YES proponents have yet to debunk my post (#683) in this thread, truth too much for some of you?

[drew]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

A lot of you "only five minutes more", "just open it". just because" crowd seem to fail to realize that sure it's maybe only five minutes at Portage and Main but there is also the effect of backing up traffic further along Portage and Main so the five minutes at Portage and Main becomes five minutes more at Portage and Garry, five minutes more at Portage and Donald etc.

The truth is traffic is funneled through P & M, like it or not that's just the way it is and any delay creates a backup ripple effect both along Portage Ave. and Main St.!

Explain how this "funnel" works when it start/stops within a block in all directions?

It's like a cloverleaf that has traffic lights at each ramp entrance and exit.

[drew]

If we were truly concerned about traffic downtown, we might want to address the bumper to bumper line of buses in the curb lane on eastbound Portage that I walk past most days after work. It usually stretches back to UofW, but it's not unusual to see it get backed up to Sherbrook.

The buses are typically empty, block intersections, and I often see buses with the same route number back to back (empty).

We gotta get buses off Portage Avenue in downtown. Or maybe try something cooler like streetcars or light rail that allows transit and traffic to operate more or less independently. Like pre-1950s downtown.

[buzzg]

Mentioned before on here but I was told directly by someone high up at the city that the plan a year or two now (and even in light of the vote) has been to remove the barriers to do the needed work, and replace them with giant movable planters.

It was their idea to appease both the "remove the barriers" and "no pedestrians" crowd.