Rural Commuter Rail

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Beachburg is still active east of Nepean Junction (mile post 14.5) where it connects to the Renfrew sub. If no one buys the subdivision for use as a railway, the city can choose to take it over for any use. I gather they did that with the Renfrew sub ROW and Nylene bought the track on it, so the same thing might happen with the Beachburg Sub.

Technically Via Rail also uses Beachburg east of Federal (mile post 6.0) to get to the Ottawa train station. I expect they will snap up the segment they use (including the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Federal Bridge over the Rideau).

Ah, I had forgotten about that part. Fair enough.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by mxg308

Ontario Beachburg 0.30 6.00 5.70 Discontinue
Ontario Beachburg 6.00 14.50 8.50 Discontinue*

I had a look at CN's Three-Year Rail Network Plan and also found some others as well (not listed in the letter to Hawkesbury). Here is the complete list of discontinuances in and near Ottawa (in the same format as in the letter):

• Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 0.00 to Mile 12.00 in the province of Quebec.
• Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 12.00 to Mile 72.40 in the province of Ontario. [Operating rights only]
• Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 72.40 to Mile 76.3 in the province of Ontario.
• M & O Subdivision from Mile 82.50 to 83.50 in the province of Ontario
• Vankleek Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 0.00 to Mile 19.80 in the province of Ontario.
• L’Orignal Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 0.00 to Mile 4.20 in the province of Ontario.
• Walkley Line Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 0.00 to Mile 4.09 in the province of Ontario.
• Walkley Line Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 4.09 to Mile 4.11 in the province of Ontario. [Operating rights only]
• Walkley Line Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 4.11 to Mile 5.83 in the province of Ontario.
• Beachburg Subdivision from Mile 0.30 to Mile 6.00 in the province of Ontario.
• Beachburg Subdivision from Mile 6.00 to Mile 14.50 in the province of Ontario.
• Smiths Falls Subdivision from Mile 0.00 to Mile 13.00 in the province of Ontario. [Operating rights only]

I find it interesting that they seem to consider mile 0 of the Alexandria Subdivision to be Coteau. According to this link, mile 0 is East Alburgh. Was the track south-east of Coteau removed?

[OCCheetos]

The three year plan also mentions this:

• M & O Subdivision(/Spur now?) from Mile 82.50 to 83.50

which is the Wye east of the train station.

This, as well as the Alexandria Subdivision from 72.40 to 76.30 don't seem to be revisions though.

There's a neat article about the Wye here:
http://www.railways.incanada.net/Circle_Articles/Article_Farand01.html

[J.OT13]

From Rail613's Twitter. In Yellow are the discontinued rail lines.


https://twitter.com/rail613/status/1052175065851355136

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

From Rail613's Twitter. In Yellow are the discontinued rail lines.

https://twitter.com/rail613/status/1052175065851355136

I saw that map in the letter to Hawkesbury but didn't post it as it has several errors.

• It shows the the Beachburg Subdivision from Mile 0.30 to Mile 6.00 as being owned by VIA, but their 3 year plan shows it as being discontinued. Now that isn't listed as new, so maybe VIA bought it within the past 3 years and thus it still needs to be listed in their plain.
• The same is true for Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 72.40 to Mile 76.3.
• Inconsequential, but it shows the Brockville Sub as being owned by CP, but VIA purchased it in 2015 (ref).

The one thing that is bothering me is that why is the middle 100 feet of the Walkley spur listed as "Discontinue Operating rights only" where as the rest is discontinued? Is that the Walkley Diamond and thus owned by the city?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The three year plan also mentions this:

• M & O Subdivision(/Spur now?) from Mile 82.50 to 83.50

which is the Wye east of the train station.

Thanks. I updated my list to include it.

This, as well as the Alexandria Subdivision from 72.40 to 76.30 don't seem to be revisions though.

Also Beachburg from 0.30 to 6.00. I wonder if VIA recently took over those three?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The one thing that is bothering me is that why is the middle 100 feet of the Walkley spur listed as "Discontinue Operating rights only" where as the rest is discontinued? Is that the Walkley Diamond and thus owned by the city?

It's probably the lead to the southern connector track coming out of the yard (since the city started using it last year).



Seems like a waste to have upgraded the yard's signals only to abandon it right afterwards, although I guess it was probably the city who wanted the upgrades.

Was the industrial spur going up to the Museum of Science and Tech already abandoned? I assume it was.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

It's probably the lead to the southern connector track coming out of the yard (since the city started using it last year).

I'm not convinced that this is correct. First of all it doesn't explain why CN doesn't own that small section of track in the middle of the spur. Secondly, it is only 0.02 miles, which converts to 32 meters and your ruler shows 85 meters.

The more I think about it, I am convinced it is the diamond. The diamond itself is likely jointly owned, and if one discontinues it, the ownership transfers to the other owner (in this case the city). Part of it may also be that they don't want the responsibility of dismantling the diamond.

I drew things out with Google MyMaps, and using 33m around the Walkley Diamond aa 4.09 to 4.11, the measurements work out pretty well:

• 0.00 to 4.09 (4.09 miles or 6.58 km) measures 6.60 km.
• 4.11 to 5.83 (1.72 miles or 2.77 km ) measures 2.75 km

So my measurements are within 20 m or 0.012 miles, which is probably just a combination of measurement and round-off error. Below you can see my map zoomed in on the diamond.


Yellow = Discontinue
Orange = Discontinue Operating rights only
Red = O-Train Line

Seems like a waste to have upgraded the yard's signals only to abandon it right afterwards, although I guess it was probably the city who wanted the upgrades.

I strongly suspect that the city will take over the yard. They use it for the the trillium line MSF and can rent out other parts of the yard that they don't use.

Was the industrial spur going up to the Museum of Science and Tech already abandoned? I assume it was.

Much of it was removed but some of it is there. I'm not sure if it is owned by the industry that uses it or it is considered a siding and thus not listed.

While I was at it, I drew all of the changes in the plan on my map (along with existing ROWs). It is similar to the map J.OT13 referenced, but I think it is better (though not necessarily perfect).


Yellow = Discontinue
Orange = Discontinue Operating rights only (City of Ottawa Owner)
Green = Discontinue Operating rights only (VIA Rail Owner)
Sage Green = Discontinue (used by VIA Rail)
Red = City of Ottawa (Active)
Blue = VIA Rail ROW
Purple = Unknown owner
Olive Green = CN Retain (out of view, see full map)
Tuscan Red = CPR Active (out of view, see full map)

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I'm not convinced that this is correct. First of all it doesn't explain why CN doesn't own that small section of track in the middle of the spur. Secondly, it is only 0.02 miles, which converts to 32 meters and your ruler shows 85 meters.

The more I think about it, I am convinced it is the diamond. The diamond itself is likely jointly owned, and if one discontinues it, the ownership transfers to the other owner (in this case the city). Part of it may also be that they don't want the responsibility of dismantling the diamond.

I drew things out with Google MyMaps, and using 33m around the Walkley Diamond aa 4.09 to 4.11, the measurements work out pretty well:

• 0.00 to 4.09 (4.09 miles or 6.58 km) measures 6.60 km.
• 4.11 to 5.83 (1.72 miles or 2.77 km ) measures 2.75 km

So my measurements are within 20 m or 0.012 miles, which is probably just a combination of measurement and round-off error. Below you can see my map zoomed in on the diamond.

Yellow = Discontinue
Orange = Discontinue Operating rights only
Red = O-Train Line

I think you're right. That makes more sense. The city will probably purchase that other bit of track.

I strongly suspect that the city will take over the yard. They use it for the the trillium line MSF and can rent out other parts of the yard that they don't use.

The current O-Train yard and the planned yard are all on current/former CP land. I'm sure CN would sell the yard to the city, but the question is would the city want to buy the yard? Tbh I can't see why they would.

If a short line pops up then renting it out might make sense, but otherwise there's no one to rent to and not a huge use for they yard (unless the city gets its hands on some switchers and starts up the Capital Railway Freight division?? )

Much of it was removed but some of it is there. I'm not sure if it is owned by the industry that uses it or it is considered a siding and thus not listed.

It probably counts as a siding and that's probably why it's not mentioned.
The property report on geoOttawa describes it as "JOINTLY OWNED CP/CN RAILWAY" though which is interesting. I didn't think CP still owned anything else other than the maintenance facilities at Walkley yard.

While I was at it, I drew all of the changes in the plan on my map (along with existing ROWs). It is similar to the map J.OT13 referenced, but I think it is better (though not necessarily perfect).


Yellow = Discontinue
Orange = Discontinue Operating rights only (City of Ottawa Owner)
Green = Discontinue Operating rights only (VIA Rail Owner)
Sage Green = Discontinue (used by VIA Rail)
Red = City of Ottawa (Active)
Blue = VIA Rail ROW
Purple = Unknown owner
Olive Green = CN Retain (out of view, see full map)
Tuscan Red = CPR Active (out of view, see full map)

That's a good map!

I think I remember reading that the Renfrew spur tracks are owned by Nylene Canada, but the city owns the corridor.

Here's an interesting question, are the rails on what's left of the Beachburg Sub (between Nepean junction and Wass junction) CWR? If so, would CN remove those rails to use elsewhere like they did with the rest of the subdivision?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The current O-Train yard and the planned yard are all on current/former CP land. I'm sure CN would sell the yard to the city, but the question is would the city want to buy the yard? Tbh I can't see why they would.

If a short line pops up then renting it out might make sense, but otherwise there's no one to rent to and not a huge use for they yard (unless the city gets its hands on some switchers and starts up the Capital Railway Freight division?? )

It depends how the city acquires the yard. If no one buys the yard for rail operations, the city has first dibs on acquiring it for any purpose (my interpretation of the rules for discontinuing a line). The ROW could be valuable to the city for other reasons.

It is also quite possible that Nylene will try to work a deal with the city for the Yard (and the Beachburg Sub) similar to what they did with the Renfrew Sub. I am sure there are other businesses that would like to keep freight rail services running in Ottawa (though the desire may not be as strong as Nylene's).

The property report on geoOttawa describes it as "JOINTLY OWNED CP/CN RAILWAY" though which is interesting. I didn't think CP still owned anything else other than the maintenance facilities at Walkley yard.

That may be a historical reference. I gather that when the NCC did their destruction reorganization of the rail lines in Ottawa, much of the new track was given jointly to CN and CP.

That's a good map!

Thanks. I like it. I was tempted to add the abandoned lines, but felt it wasn't really important for the topic at hand.

I think I remember reading that the Renfrew spur tracks are owned by Nylene Canada, but the city owns the corridor.

Yes, I read that somewhere as well.

Here's an interesting question, are the rails on what's left of the Beachburg Sub (between Nepean junction and Wass junction) CWR? If so, would CN remove those rails to use elsewhere like they did with the rest of the subdivision?

By Wass junction, I assume you mean Federal (the junction with the Smiths Falls Subdivision)? It is certainly quite possible that it is CWR. They could only do that after receiving approval to discontinue the line from TC. If anyone (like Nyene) wants to acquire the subdivision for railway operations, CN would be required to sell it for a fair price (or change their mind about discontinuing it). The value of the rail would be a consideration in that price though.

[Truenorth00]

Thankfully, Doucet is toast. And we can forget about this MOOSE nonsense till somebody else runs it up the flagpole in 2022.

[AuxTown]

Ya let's close the thread and pretend that reasonable people who promote city building and intensification never discussed such nonsense

[Joseph Potvin]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Doucet is toast.

His was not a thought-through system plan at all. He outlined no way to finance it. I don't recall that he ever mentioned any private sector role at all. And for some reason he ran 5% of what such a campaign would have required. Evidently he just wanted to add to the debate, not to actually win.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And we can forget about this MOOSE

Go ahead, those who write off regional rail integration as nonsense from the outset. We're still advancing the project. For an overview, our brochure was recently updated:
https://www.onyvamoose.ca/wp-content/uploads//MooseRail_Brochure2018-Ottawa-V8.pdf

Some may want to keep an eye on what happens next with the illegally destroyed federally-regulated track at Bayview https://www.letsgomoose.ca/wp-content/up...nisterTransportCanada_2018-09-18cPDF.pdf

Kudos to those keeping tabs on the infrastructure throughout the region. Not many cultures on this planet these days would throw away many billions of dollars worth of transit infrastructure -- is that one of the things that makes Canada special? Hmm, Are we in a perverse spiral with this carbon tax thing? Not only will most Canadian end up with more money (apparently!)
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/carbon-t...anadians-with-more-money-study-1.4109737
...but if we continue to wreck our railways, and force ever greater use of cars, then carbon tax revenues should remain very 'healthy' for government revenues for a long time.

Sigh,

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Joseph Potvin

His was not a thought-through system plan at all. He outlined no way to finance it. I don't recall that he ever mentioned any private sector role at all. And for some reason he ran 5% of what such a campaign would have required. Evidently he just wanted to add to the debate, not to actually win.



Go ahead, those who write off regional rail integration as nonsense from the outset. We're still advancing the project. For an overview, our brochure was recently updated:
https://www.onyvamoose.ca/wp-content/uploads//MooseRail_Brochure2018-Ottawa-V8.pdf

Some may want to keep an eye on what happens next with the illegally destroyed federally-regulated track at Bayview https://www.letsgomoose.ca/wp-content/up...nisterTransportCanada_2018-09-18cPDF.pdf

Kudos to those keeping tabs on the infrastructure throughout the region. Not many cultures on this planet these days would throw away many billions of dollars worth of transit infrastructure -- is that one of the things that makes Canada special? Hmm, Are we in a perverse spiral with this carbon tax thing? Not only will most Canadian end up with more money (apparently!)
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/carbon-t...anadians-with-more-money-study-1.4109737
...but if we continue to wreck our railways, and force ever greater use of cars, then carbon tax revenues should remain very 'healthy' for government revenues for a long time.

Sigh,

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com

"Moose to start operations with reconditioned trains."

What does that mean? Almost a full year ahead of "Moose rail’s inaugural passenger rail service opens for operation July 2020."? I take it some plans have changed?

Their student project design will accommodate combined operations of full-sized bi-level regional trains and smaller LRT trains, respecting federal regulatory and safety management conditions.

Well well well, I guess it's good that some things have changed for the better?

Since this kind of flew under the radar:
Twelve UOttawa Civil Engineering Students to Help Advance MOOSE Prince of Wales Bridge Rehabilitation Concept and Modular Start-Up Station System for NCR Interprovincial Rail

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

"Moose to start operations with reconditioned trains."

What does that mean? Almost a full year ahead of "Moose rail’s inaugural passenger rail service opens for operation July 2020."? I take it some plans have changed?


Well well well, I guess it's good that some things have changed for the better?

Mr. Potvin has been promising an imminent start of operations since at least 2011, when operations were supposed to start in the winter of 2012 so nothing has changed.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-area-commuter-rail-gathers-steam-1.1003316

Whether or not a student thinks it is ok, it is hard to imagine any regulator agreeing with large bilevel commuter trains sharing tracks with little European trams.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Mr. Potvin has been promising an imminent start of operations since at least 2011, when operations were supposed to start in the winter of 2012 so nothing has changed.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-area-commuter-rail-gathers-steam-1.1003316

Whether or not a student thinks it is ok, it is hard to imagine any regulator agreeing with large bilevel commuter trains sharing tracks with little European trams.

The "reconditioned trains" part is new.

Their student project design will accommodate combined operations of full-sized bi-level regional trains and smaller LRT trains, respecting federal regulatory and safety management conditions.

Well, they don't disagree. I assume they'd try to get a situation similar to that of TEXRail (with an alternative compliance exemption). I agree that nothing like this has been done before, but it doesn't necessarily seem as impossible as you're making it out to be. But, we'll just have to see what happens (if it happens).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The "reconditioned trains" part is new.

.

That just means “used”.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That just means “used”.

My point being that MOOSE had never mentioned "used trains" in the past before.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

My point being that MOOSE had never mentioned "used trains" in the past before.

How does that make a difference? They have made no progress in 7 years: no substantial investors, no permissions, no support from the relevant governments. Worrying about whether the rolling stock is new or used is a bit like NASA worrying about what colour the spacesuits should be for a mission to Titan.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

How does that make a difference? They have made no progress in 7 years: no substantial investors, no permissions, no support from the relevant governments. Worrying about whether the rolling stock is new or used is a bit like NASA worrying about what colour the spacesuits should be for a mission to Titan.

Considering that for the last 7 years they have been somewhat insistent on using brand new bi-level coaches, a change to using some second-hand equipment and the inclusion of DMUs (which I think we can assume is what was meant by "LRT trains") is at least somewhat notable. IIRC it was one of the many criticisms/comments made by members of this forum.

I'm not claiming that this will bring them any closer to accomplishing their goals, but it doesn't make it any less worth noting.

I think it would be more like NASA deciding between re-using old launch components or developing a new launch system to reach Titan. Deciding on space suit colours is more like deciding on liveries (quite literally).