Rural Commuter Rail

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And we need to stop talking about MOOSE servicing existing riders. Potvin has no intention of doing so. He only what's to service those within the 800m circle. And that rent-seeking won't work for most riders today. If his plan ever came to pass, he'd make it as painful as possible for riders not from his 800m catchment to use MOOSE.

It's funny that he insinuates something nefarious in Watson working to put Ottawa's interests first. Imagine that being considered wrong-headed. But I guess if you don't live in Ottawa...

But even for people living in those circles it is not really clear what the advantage would be. The VIA train from Smiths Falls takes almost an hour to get to Tremblay and that is with only one stop. Someone buying into one of these developments is probably looking at a two hour door-to-door commute, which may be normal in LA but is insane in the Ottawa area.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Seriously, that was an issue last September when I rode the train between New York and Montreal. The train had to slow down to 15 mph because of the heat and effect it might have on the track.


I presume this was because it was old track. I would hope that they can mitigate against this with modern technology.

Slowdowns due to track bending in hot weather are common. GO has annual issues with this in Toronto, age of track isn't a significant factor.

[Buggys]

Does the hot track bending affect the summer speed of the Trillium line right now? And would it affect the Confederation line?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Seriously, that was an issue last September when I rode the train between New York and Montreal. The train had to slow down to 15 mph because of the heat and effect it might have on the track.


I presume this was because it was old track. I would hope that they can mitigate against this with modern technology.

We have discussed this before but the issue is that steel (or any material really) in the rails expands when it is heated and contracts when it is cooled. With Continuous Welded Rails (CWR) there are no expansion gaps to allow for this. As a result on hot days the rails are in compression and want to bend to releive the pressure and on cold days they are in tension and could fracture at a weak spot. As a result they use various techiques to mitigate the issue. Some of them include:

• Clamping the rails to the ties they stop the rails from sliding lengthwise along the track to prevent the force from all being applied at one weak spot.
• Using Rail Stressing to have no compression or tension at a set temperature (typically 27 deg.)
• Providing shade for the track so that direct sunlight won't cause excessive heat. That is why you often see a row of trees along the side of the tracks.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

We have discussed this before but the issue is that steel (or any material really) in the rails expands when it is heated and contracts when it is cooled. With Continuous Welded Rails (CWR) there are no expansion gaps to allow for this. As a result on hot days the rails are in compression and want to bend to releive the pressure and on cold days they are in tension and could fracture at a weak spot. As a result they use various techiques to mitigate the issue. Some of them include:

• Clamping the rails to the ties they stop the rails from sliding lengthwise along the track to prevent the force from all being applied at one weak spot.
• Using Rail Stressing to have no compression or tension at a set temperature (typically 27 deg.)
• Providing shade for the track so that direct sunlight won't cause excessive heat. That is why you often see a row of trees along the side of the tracks.

Thank you for sharing!

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by Buggys

Does the hot track bending affect the summer speed of the Trillium line right now? And would it affect the Confederation line?

The Trillium line track doesn't have major heat expansion concerns for a variety of reasons:

- The track is well shaded in most areas, either by trees or the trench
- Much of the track is anchored, every other tie in many places. Anchors prevent the track from sliding along its length.
- Though it is CWR, the segments aren't that long as a result of the number of switches, bridges, diamonds, etc. that break up the length.

There are track slowdowns for other reasons, the spring thaw can cause issues in some places on the line.

[Buggys]

Neat! Thanks!!

[waterloowarrior]

Is LeMine still involved with MOOSE? Yikes.

"Toronto Star: This condo developer collected millions in deposits — and hasn’t built anything"

https://www.thestar.com/news/investigati...n-deposits-and-hasnt-built-anything.html

Central Park Ajax is not officially dead — a court decision expected sometime this fall could save it — but it is on life support. For now it seems destined to become the latest failed venture by the LeMine Investment Group, a company headed by Tong (Thomas) Liu, a developer who dreams big but can’t seem to get anything built.

Liu’s failure to deliver his ambitious projects has left hundreds of purchasers in the lurch. Meanwhile, the 35-year-old is embroiled in at least 14 lawsuits that allege, among other things, that he misrepresented himself, owes millions to investors and doesn’t pay his bills. Earlier this year a judge found that Liu engaged in self-dealing and acted in bad faith.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Is LeMine still involved with MOOSE? Yikes.

"Toronto Star: This condo developer collected millions in deposits — and hasn’t built anything"

https://www.thestar.com/news/investigati...n-deposits-and-hasnt-built-anything.html

I believe they moved on to other potential investors?

[Allandale25]

^ Haven't seen many updates. And it looks like Watson will be easily re-elected which means he'll press ahead with the plan.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The point is the old line to Stittsville didn't go to Kinburn and the old line to Navan didn't go to Vars and Limoges. It is a clear case of blatant deception by Doucet renaming stations on his map to fool the public into thinking that their community will get rail service when he has no intention of doing so.

If you want to talk about track that has been removed, the track on the Beachburg Subdivison (dark blue on his map) was also torn up west of the junction with the Renfrew Subdivision (between the Kanata and Bells Corners stations) about 4 years ago (see End of the line for Beachburg Subdivision).

I was reading an article on Stittsville Central about his plan for Stittsville which shows an updated map which isn't quite so misleading.



The map now labels the station as "Carp/Stittsville" and the legend indicates which tracks are abandoned. The article also says:

“Stittsville will be served at the beginning by a station between Stittsville and Carp along the rail line with the terminus at Kinburn,” said campaign spokesperson Anne-Marie Roy in an email to this newspaper. “We will not be using the former rail bed that is used for cycling (TCT) and there will be no additional cost for tracks since our plan does not require laying down any new track.”

I still say the station name is disingenuous as it will be a 9km drive north-west of the 417 (Stittsville is south of the 417), so it won't be of much use to Stittsville residents. Terry Fox Station is only about 5km east of Carp Rd and even less from Palladium Dr. and Bells Corners (another station on his line) is only about 12 km from Stittsville and at least you would be heading in the right direction.

Also, saying there will be no additional cost for tracks assumes the tracks are in good condition. Judging by the speed trains run along it, I would guess that it is class 1 or 2 track, which would limit the speed of passenger trains to 15 or 30 mph (24 to 48 km/h) respectively without any upgrades. This class of track is fine for freight trains that run two round trips a week, but would be a crawl as a top speed for passenger service (the average speed would be much less than that).

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I was reading an article on Stittsville Central about his plan for Stittsville which shows an updated map which isn't quite so misleading.



The map now labels the station as "Carp/Stittsville" and the legend indicates which tracks are abandoned. The article also says:


I still say the station name is disingenuous as it will be a 9km drive north-west of the 417 (Stittsville is south of the 417), so it won't be of much use to Stittsville residents. Terry Fox Station is only about 5km east of Carp Rd and even less from Palladium Dr. and Bells Corners (another station on his line) is only about 12 km from Stittsville and at least you would be heading in the right direction.

Also, saying there will be no additional cost for tracks assumes the tracks are in good condition. Judging by the speed trains run along it, I would guess that it is class 1 or 2 track, which would limit the speed of passenger trains to 15 or 30 mph (24 to 48 km/h) respectively without any upgrades. This class of track is fine for freight trains that run two round trips a week, but would be a crawl as a top speed for passenger service (the average speed would be much less than that).

I guess the same thinking applies to Navan..?

From the information MOOSE collected about those rail lines (Appendix G) everything from Nepean Junction to Ariprior is class I.

Here's the other bits of data they have on it:

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I guess the same thinking applies to Navan..?

From the information MOOSE collected about those rail lines (Appendix G) everything from Nepean Junction to Ariprior is class I.

Here's the other bits of data they have on it:

Interesting. From the same link, the Beachburg Sub. from Federal to Nepean Junction is Class II with "some I." East of that it jumps to Class IV.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by roger1818

“Stittsville will be served at the beginning by a station between Stittsville and Carp along the rail line with the terminus at Kinburn,” said campaign spokesperson Anne-Marie Roy in an email to this newspaper. “We will not be using the former rail bed that is used for cycling (TCT) and there will be no additional cost for tracks since our plan does not require laying down any new track.”

Somebody should tell them that the entire Kanata North branch to Fitzroy on their plan is now gone. As well as Chelsea.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Somebody should tell them that the entire Kanata North branch to Fitzroy on their plan is now gone. As well as Chelsea.

Good Day.

Indeed the legend does label them as abandoned (green bar).

EnJoy!

[waterloowarrior]

CN has revised its three-year network plan to include the following potential discontinuances.

https://pub-ucpr.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=88

• Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 12.00 to Mile 72.40 in the province of
Ontario. [Operating rights only]
• Vankleek Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 0.00 to Mile 19.80
in the province of Ontario.
• L’Orignal Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 0.00 to Mile 4.20
in the province of Ontario.
• Walkley Line Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 0.00 to Mile
4.09 in the province of Ontario.
• Walkley Line Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 4.09 to Mile
4.11 in the province of Ontario. [Operating rights only]
• Walkley Line Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 4.11 to Mile
5.83 in the province of Ontario.

https://www.cn.ca/EN/ABOUT-CN/NETWORK-EFFICIENCIES/

Beachburg Mile 6 to 14.50 was also in the CN PDF to discontinue. Miles 0.3 to 6.00 were already on the list.

[mxg308]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

CN has revised its three-year network plan to include the following potential discontinuances.

https://pub-ucpr.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=88

• Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 12.00 to Mile 72.40 in the province of
Ontario. [Operating rights only]
• Vankleek Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 0.00 to Mile 19.80
in the province of Ontario.
• L’Orignal Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 0.00 to Mile 4.20
in the province of Ontario.
• Walkley Line Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 0.00 to Mile
4.09 in the province of Ontario.
• Walkley Line Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 4.09 to Mile
4.11 in the province of Ontario. [Operating rights only]
• Walkley Line Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 4.11 to Mile
5.83 in the province of Ontario.

https://www.cn.ca/EN/ABOUT-CN/NETWORK-EFFICIENCIES/

Beachburg Mile 6 to 14.50 was also in the CN PDF to discontinue. Miles 0.3 to 6.00 were already on the list.

Ontario Beachburg 0.30 6.00 5.70 Discontinue
Ontario Beachburg 6.00 14.50 8.50 Discontinue*

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

CN has revised its three-year network plan to include the following potential discontinuances.

https://pub-ucpr.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=88

• Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 12.00 to Mile 72.40 in the province of
Ontario. [Operating rights only]
• Vankleek Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 0.00 to Mile 19.80
in the province of Ontario.
• L’Orignal Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 0.00 to Mile 4.20
in the province of Ontario.
• Walkley Line Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 0.00 to Mile
4.09 in the province of Ontario.
• Walkley Line Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 4.09 to Mile
4.11 in the province of Ontario. [Operating rights only]
• Walkley Line Spur on the Alexandria Subdivision from Mile 4.11 to Mile
5.83 in the province of Ontario.

https://www.cn.ca/EN/ABOUT-CN/NETWORK-EFFICIENCIES/

Beachburg Mile 6 to 14.50 was also in the CN PDF to discontinue. Miles 0.3 to 6.00 were already on the list.

That sounds like CN is planning on pulling out of Ottawa completely. If so, who will deliver Nylene its carprolactum? I assume the city will take over the Walkley yard and the Beachburg sub (they already own the Renfrew sub).

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That sounds like CN is planning on pulling out of Ottawa completely. If so, who will deliver Nylene its carprolactum? I assume the city will take over the Walkley yard and the Beachburg sub (they already own the Renfrew sub).

QGRY? Although that would probably require the PoW bridge to be fixed among dozens of other logistical problems (but at least the Ellwood grade separation will include that freight alignment I guess?)

I guess the NRC facility will be only receiving deliveries by truck from then on too?

Beachburg is already abandoned, but CN still owns the land. I don't think they're going to bother getting rid of it unless someone is actually interested in it.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Beachburg is already abandoned, but CN still owns the land. I don't think they're going to bother getting rid of it unless someone is actually interested in it.

Beachburg is still active east of Nepean Junction (mile post 14.5) where it connects to the Renfrew sub. If no one buys the subdivision for use as a railway, the city can choose to take it over for any use. I gather they did that with the Renfrew sub ROW and Nylene bought the track on it, so the same thing might happen with the Beachburg Sub.

Technically Via Rail also uses Beachburg east of Federal (mile post 6.0) to get to the Ottawa train station. I expect they will snap up the segment they use (including the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Federal Bridge over the Rideau).