Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[ClaytonA]

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news...ail-line-between-north-van-prince-george

Why only North Van; it should go to Pacific Central. She's lobby the wrong order of government, it needs to be the feds, not the province.

Interesting how tracks just "sit empty most of the time".

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news...ail-line-between-north-van-prince-george

Why only North Van; it should go to Pacific Central. She's lobby the wrong order of government, it needs to be the feds, not the province.

Interesting how tracks just "sit empty most of the time".

This way the train only needs to unload people at Lonsdale Quay.

[djmk]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

This way the train only needs to unload people at Lonsdale Quay.

I think the old station is closer to Lions Gate Bridge

Edit.... don't quote me on that. I think I might be wrong

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news...ail-line-between-north-van-prince-george

Why only North Van; it should go to Pacific Central. She's lobby the wrong order of government, it needs to be the feds, not the province.

Interesting how tracks just "sit empty most of the time".

...and there currently aren't any issues with passenger trains being delayed in Vancouver *cough*WCE*cough*

From the article:

“With the loss of Greyhound, this has now really put added stress on so many communities all the way up and down the line — especially those along Highway 97 to the north,” said Lillooet Mayor Marg Lampman. “It’s my hope that the premier will see this as a good venture for the B.C. government to work with Via Rail.”

...

Lampman has been advocating for the return of train service through the corridor for the past three years, but she said the departure of Greyhound will exacerbate the transportation issues for communities along the route.

“My community has never had bus service, and when the train was taken down, it left us with only one option, and that is by vehicle, and it put many hardships on my community members and surrounding communities,” Lampman said.

She said the rail line, which is now owned by Canadian National Railway and used for freight, sits empty most of the time, and she believes there could be benefits for tourism, for local businesses, for the environment, and for people who don’t drive but need to travel safely between cities.

Lampman envisions a service similar to the Cariboo Prospector, which ran for 46 years using diesel-powered Budd cars. She said it would not be prohibitively expensive, so it would be an option for people who previously relied on Greyhound.

...

The village of McBride and the Central Kootenay Regional District have also put forward resolutions that mention Greyhound — one about addressing the “vital passenger transportation void” in northern B.C. and the other regarding patient transfers in rural areas. The UBCM executive plans to bring forward a special resolution on the loss of Greyhound.

The Passenger Transportation Board announced after Greyhound’s pullout that it was introducing a simplified application package for operators who want to run intercity buses on corridors that have already no service or will be without service at the end of October. As of Friday, one operator had applied: Trail-based Silver City Stagelines.

Silver City plans to introduce a reservation-only Nelson-Kelowna route that runs a minimum of six times per week and stops in Castlegar, Trail, Grand Forks, Greenwood, Midway and Rock Creek. It will replace the company’s Trail-Castlegar route.

“Greyhound’s recent announcement that they will no longer be servicing Western Canada effective Oct. 31, 2018, will leave many rural towns with no bus service to larger city centres,” the applicant wrote. “I deeply understand how valuable it is to have a reliable means of transportation from the rural towns in the West Kootenays to Kelowna.”

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by djmk

I think the old station is closer to Lions Gate Bridge

On Pemberton Ave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BC_Rail

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by officedweller

On Pemberton Ave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BC_Rail

Here is where it is now.

I think the station that the BCR used to leave from got demo'd for the new NS Wastewater Treatment Plant.

I seem to recall that's where the Royal Hudson left from when I was a kid.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Here is where it is now.

I think the station that the BCR used to leave from got demo'd for the new NS Wastewater Treatment Plant.

I seem to recall that's where the Royal Hudson left from when I was a kid.

Yes, at one time there was a proposal to build a Costco on the old train station site, but that never came to fruition. They're currently building the new treatment facility.

https://northshorewwtp.ca/

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

There are several promising technologies I hope we will take a second look at including the Bombardier Jettrain which could run on existing tracks at over 200 KM/H without the need for special track or overhead wires...

AFAIK, the Jet Train project is long dead. As designed in the late 90's, it likely doesn't meet modern Tier 4 environmental emissions standards.

The special tracks reference was meaning not electrified. Class 7 track would still be required to run at 200 km/h.

While it was interesting back then, I don't see it being any better than the Siemens Charger SCB-40 and SC-44 locomotives recently purchased by both Brightline and Amtrak.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If I were them, here is what I would do.

1) Cut the Canadian in 2, with the split in Winnipeg. This could fix the chronically late trains.

I would divide it up into more than 2 routes. Overnight trains are expensive to run (fewer people fit in a sleeper car than a standard coach) and many cities and towns end up with service in the middle of the night. As a result only tourists end up taking it from Vancouver to Toronto as it is cheaper to fly. Having reliable daytime intercity service would make it more usable. If there is demand for a transcontinental tourist train, let a private company operate it.

2) Reinstate The Dominion. Basically, have it in 2 sections as well. Both cut in Winnipeg. The part through Ontario could go through Thunder Bay and SSM before heading south in Sudbury.

This is the route The Canadian had from its creation in 1955 by the CPR until 1990 when VIA Rail decided to cancel it and rename the Super Continental to The Canadian. I do agree that certain portions of this should be re-instated as daylight service, but it is a pipe dream to have all of it again.

3) have a train run between Calgary and Edmonton. The tracks are there, and that route is heaveily used, so adding a train would likely work well. I know the rails are in bad shape, but if the Federal government are going to throw money aroudn for rail transit, the can and should thow money at things like this.

I highly agree this should be done. It could eventually be HSR, but don't let that be an obstacle to the reinstatement of rail service.

I would be nice to hear that effective November 1 2018, Via has new routes.

Unfortunately that is a pipe dream. VIA doesn't own enough equipment to do this if they wanted to. They could take over the bus service by buying Greyhound's buses and then integrate it with their rail network. They could then work out a long term plan to decide what should be done with trains and what should be kept as bus service.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I would divide it up into more than 2 routes. Overnight trains are expensive to run (fewer people fit in a sleeper car than a standard coach) and many cities and towns end up with service in the middle of the night. As a result only tourists end up taking it from Vancouver to Toronto as it is cheaper to fly. Having reliable daytime intercity service would make it more usable. If there is demand for a transcontinental tourist train, let a private company operate it.



This is the route The Canadian had from its creation in 1955 by the CPR until 1990 when VIA Rail decided to cancel it and rename the Super Continental to The Canadian. I do agree that certain portions of this should be re-instated as daylight service, but it is a pipe dream to have all of it again.



I highly agree this should be done. It could eventually be HSR, but don't let that be an obstacle to the reinstatement of rail service.



Unfortunately that is a pipe dream. VIA doesn't own enough equipment to do this if they wanted to. They could take over the bus service by buying Greyhound's buses and then integrate it with their rail network. They could then work out a long term plan to decide what should be done with trains and what should be kept as bus service.

Yes, pipe dreams. But if these all were announced that they would all get funding, some would take a year whereas some could be done almost immediately. For instance, the split at Winnipeg could be done right away if they plan the route out right as the same train could continue through Winnipeg, just with a 12ish hour layover.

[Sheba]

First hydrogen-powered train hits the tracks in Germany

French train-building company Alstom built two hydrogen-powered trains and delivered them to Germany last weekend, where they'll zoom along a 62-mile stretch of track that runs from the northern cities of Cuxhaven, Bremerhaven, Bremervörde, and Buxtehude. The new trains replace their diesel-powered counterparts and are the first of their kind, but they are likely not the last. Alstom is contracted to deliver 14 more hydrogen-powered trains, called Coradia iLint trains, before 2021.

...

The advantages of hydrogen fuel cells are that—unlike battery-powered vehicles—refueling a hydrogen-powered vehicle is just as fast as a vehicle powered by fossil fuels. No sitting around and charging overnight is required. Trains tend not to be battery-powered when they're electric, however, because they're so heavy. Electric train systems tend to use catenary systems, with electrified cables providing electricity to the train. But over long distances, setting up an external electricity source can be expensive.
...

Alstom noted that each of its trains has a range of 1,000km (621 miles), so it can effectively refuel once and run through the system throughout the rest of the day. The trains can achieve a top speed of 140km/h (87mph). Excess energy that is not used to move the train forward is stored in an additional battery. Because fuel cells power electric motors in fuel cell vehicles, they're also quieter than diesel locomotives.

[ssiguy]

Interesting about the Hydrail as Ontario has been seriously looking into Hydrail for it's 200 km RER system currently under construction. One of the biggest and most time consuming parts of the huge project will be electrification which will include another 60km to Barrie. The Hydrail would not, if implemented, replace the truly massive 12 car double-decker GO commuter trains used now but rather the probably one level EMUs that were to be used on the RER network.


Hydrail offers all the speed, de/acceleration, zero emissions, quiet ride, and less outdoor noise of electrified sytems without the huge up front costs of electrifying the entire system. If the electrification costs are $1 billion and don't have to paid, that an extra billion saved that can go right to rolling stock and you can get a LOT of rolling stock for a cool billion. The Alstom trains actually are working in consortium with Hydrogenics..........a Mississuaga based company.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Interesting about the Hydrail as Ontario has been seriously looking into Hydrail for it's 200 km RER system currently under construction. One of the biggest and most time consuming parts of the huge project will be electrification which will include another 60km to Barrie. The Hydrail would not, if implemented, replace the truly massive 12 car double-decker GO commuter trains used now but rather the probably one level EMUs that were to be used on the RER network.


Hydrail offers all the speed, de/acceleration, zero emissions, quiet ride, and less outdoor noise of electrified sytems without the huge up front costs of electrifying the entire system. If the electrification costs are $1 billion and don't have to paid, that an extra billion saved that can go right to rolling stock and you can get a LOT of rolling stock for a cool billion. The Alstom trains actually are working in consortium with Hydrogenics..........a Mississuaga based company.

You just have to pay to extract...hydrogen...for the multi decade life of the fleet.

25kv AC overhead Electric trains are a mature developed technology with high performance and with predictable costs and benefits and a world infrastructure to supply equipment for. Now is not the time for dancing with unicorns and gagetbahnen

[Trainguy]

Here is yet another article drumming the HSR drum.

Portland to Canada in Two Hours

Portland Oregon USA - Government leaders are working on creating an ultra-high-speed train for our region.

Transportation officials say it would put Portland passengers in Vancouver, B.C. in about two hours.

Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia governments are hoping to turn this into a reality by 2035.

Gov. Kate Brown said in a statement to FOX 12 Monday:

"This effort to bring ultra-high speed rail to the Pacific Northwest is the first of its kind. It brings together public and private partners such as Microsoft to build the business case and make it a reality. This could provide big returns for the State of Oregon and a much needed transportation option."

Amtrak's Cascade route already runs from Portland to Vancouver and takes about eight hours.

The idea for the ultra-high-speed rail is still in early talks, but transportation officials say it will not replace the current system.

It would be an additional travel option, mainly because the current tracks share with freight trains, and serve 18 cities in the Pacific Northwest, more than an ultra-high-speed option would go to.

According to a report published in February, the project could create 30,000 jobs per year, over a nine-year period, and drive US$29 billion in labor income.

Transportation officials aren't quite sure how much the "Cascade Megaregion" rail will cost yet because they haven't settled on what technology would be used.

So right now, they're estimating US$25 billion to more than US$40 billion to build.

The technologies they're considering are a High-Speed Rail (HSR - a traditional steel wheel train on tracks), a Maglev (a floating train used in places like China), and a Hyperloop (a proposed concept from Elon Musk).

A spokesperson for the Washington Department of Transportation says currently, there's a more in-depth study being conducted, and they're looking to refine those costs after picking the best technology for the route.

Who will fund the project is unclear at this point, but Microsoft and other private companies have funded studies already.

Transportation officials are expected to meet Tuesday to discuss next steps including costs, ridership, and economic impacts.

Brenna Kelly.

[ClaytonA]

What could $1.2 million have got us towards having a third round trip per day from Vancouver to Seattle? (Rhetorical)

A pilot? A summer-only demo?

A down payment on rolling stock?

Maybe more cars (longer trains), so they could lower prices to be competitive with bus transport for the existing runs?

$40 billion...

[Migrant_Coconut]

$25-40 billion USD is about $33-52 billion CAD, by the way. Again, exactly how much ridership (and at what price) are they looking at? Because if Cascadia just wants a public works project, there's plenty of other things they could do.

[WarrenC12]

Am I crazy thinking this sounds cheap for the type of technology they are taking about? I mean compare this to what we are paying for Skytrain lines under 10kms around here.

Not to mention you can easily sell $100+ tickets for these trains. Maybe there is some kind of reasonable business case after all. I've flown to Seattle and Portland for business. The traffic is there. Even for cross-border vacations out of SeaTac, assuming there's a connection via their light rail.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Am I crazy thinking this sounds cheap for the type of technology they are taking about?

I suspect the pricing is based on conventional HSR technology. Maglev could be a possible technology but is unlikely. Hyperloop is purely delusion of grandeur (unless Elon Musk decides to pay for the line to showcase the technology).

I mean compare this to what we are paying for Skytrain lines under 10kms around here.

SkyTrain uses similar Linear Induction Motors (LIM) to what a Maglev would use, so in terms of guideway, the costs will be similar. Having the Maglev guideway run at ground level between cities and not having to install rails might save some money but having extra magnets to elevate the trains will add to the cost.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by roger1818

SkyTrain uses similar Linear Induction Motors (LIM) to what a Maglev would use, so in terms of guideway, the costs will be similar. Having the Maglev guideway run at ground level between cities and not having to install rails might save some money but having extra magnets to elevate the trains will add to the cost.

SkyTrain is considered a Low-Speed Linear Induction system in that its capable max speed is below 100km/h but are only ever a few kilometers between stations. There were quite a few people movers worldwide that fit into this class.
High-Speed Linear Induction as the name implies goes far faster and becomes more efficient when the distance between stations is tens or hundreds of kilometers but doesn't always require additional magnets for propulsion. Rohr was working on something the early 70's using the same principles but with clocked speeds up to 275km/h and an air cushion with LIM instead of steel rail and LIM like the SkyTrain. They had a functioning prototype working right up until the funding plug was pulled.


ROHR Industries

I only bring that up because ironically the Rohr system is the ancestor to ICTS/ALRT/ART.

But eventually the U.S. Department of Transportation saw the writing on the wall. Which led to Rohr cancelling its Aerotrain project. So in October of 1975, Rohr's test vehicle was "put in mothballs" in its Pueblo garage to keep it preserved for future use in case it was ever called on again.
...
Soon after, the Rohr engineers were approached by the UTDC out of Ontario, Canada to design for them a rapid transit system. The engineers spent over two years (being on and off of the project during that time) designing what would become the ICTS train for use in Canada. It too used a linear induction motor. But it did not hover on an air cushion like the Aerotrain. It used steel wheels on steel rails.

Unfortunately, Rohr's manager allowed the UTDC to pick his engineers brains for the ICTS designs without ever getting a contract signed. So once Rohr's final design specs were approved by the UTDC, the UTDC said, "Thanks. We'll call you." When Rohr asked when they should start building the ICTS for them, the UTDC said, "Since we now have all the plans we need, we can build the ICTS ourselves. Goodbye." And having no contract meant getting no payment.

The UTDC's working ICTS prototype first appeared in the December 1980 issue of Popular Science. Rohr Industries, Inc. is never mentioned in the article.

- https://sites.google.com/site/rohraerotrain/

I sense bitterness.

[officedweller]

Cool bit of history.
Thanks.