DENVER | Transportation Thread

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

There's an old sports analogy that "if we don't pull together we'll end up tearing the team apart" - or something like that.


I think your instincts are incorrect here. IMO the preponderance of 'special interest' groups come from within Denver. RTD was merely trying to work with their primary transit benefactor - Denver.

Not sure how you come to that conclusion- the Pass Program Working Group was a pretty broad representation of membership. But the City of Denver has been keeping low-income advocacy groups at bay for years. A couple of years of bitching at RTD and the Board rolls over like scared dog. Similar to how a 10 decrease of the light rail seating was implemented due to bitching by the disability mobility advocacy.

See if you can catch this curveball?

Putting on my Highlands Ranch hat; you can now call me Mr Highlands Ranch.

"While we have limited access to light rail we do enjoy and appreciate this. Here is what we want/intend to do."

We'll offer to pay RTD 5.5 tenths sales tax in support of FasTracks and it's operation. Otherwise you can keep your clunky bus out of Highlands Ranch. With our savings of 4.5 tenths percent sales tax we'll partner with a micro-transit company to provide app-based service to our our residents for the purpose of better first & last mile access to light rail and to many retail centers. Bye bye RTD buses.

I wouldn't have the numbers but RTD would have them. My strong bet is that's a winner for Highlands Ranch and a loser for RTD meaning the RTD's revenue from Highlands Ranch easily exceeds the cost of providing a few bus routes.

Having a hard time recognizing hyperbole, are we? Highlands Ranch doesn't have a half dozen routes to cut to begin with. But, are the four routes that go through Highlands Ranch (a circular, the 0, the two E/W routes) the best use of resources? Maybe a 0 that runs every 10 minutes, a single crosstown that runs every 15 minutes, and an on-demand local circulator would be better use of resources. The are served by high-quality transit is smaller, but you're also bringing high-quality transit to an area that currently has none.

Hmmm, why couldn't RTD offer a similar service on-demand service in lieu of fixed bus routes? Oh wait, it does in the form of Access-A-Ride or Call-A-Ride. Seems to be pretty expensive as well from an operating standpoint due to the whole having be fully accessible (something that private rideshares have had to do- yet). Now if Highlands Ranch decides that it's better off opting out of RTD bus service entirely, it would also have to figure out how to provide those accessibility services as disability mobility advocates in the Metro Area are pretty vocal. Bit of an offsetting cost versus any perceived savings right there.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Ultimately, I believe that RTD needs to have a serious discussion about re-configuring it's bus route to emphasize high-frequency corridors and eliminate low-performing routes (inter-city and suburb). The agency needs to be about transit efficiency, and corresponding ridership, versus transit equality. If a half dozen routes in Highland Ranch need to be eliminated- so be it. If the only route through Globeville needs to be eliminated than it should be done.

Well stated generally; I'll agree.

I'm sure that you (and everybody) can vividly recall all my posts over the last 18 months or so. "We've" touched an amazing number of bases, looked at transit from all angles. My personal goal was to learn and talk about buses and bus service.

RTD is a lot more on top of things than most people can see or appreciate

They are fully aware of what various agencies around the country have been doing; what works and what hasn't. They are in fact looking at all the angles for ways to be more efficient and effective. With reams of data they're doing lots of analysis and specific studies towards changes and proposed projects.

In fact, RTD has been making various changes and improvements during 2018. The problem is these changes are all at the margin; they don't or won't 'move the needle.'

Here's my pet peeve and it's more with Denver than with RTD

Two projects start their planning at essentially the same time.

Project A - is the East Colfax Connector BRT proposal

Project B - is a streetcar proposal in Tempe AZ

Both projects are essentially the same size and cost. Chances are very good that Tempe residents will be riding their new streetcars before Denver/RTD even breaks ground on the East Colfax BRT.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Not sure how you come to that conclusion- the Pass Program Working Group was a pretty broad representation of membership.

Fair enough and I didn't check where the 'Nay' votes represented. Not sure the point is that important but I'll assume you don't really think that the City of Denver is run by Conservatives while the burbs are run by Liberals?

[PhilipDDG]

Take Five: "Here's my pet peeve and it's more with Denver than with RTD

Two projects start their planning at essentially the same time.
Project A - is the East Colfax Connector BRT proposal
Project B - is a streetcar proposal in Tempe AZ
Both projects are essentially the same size and cost. Chances are very good that Tempe residents will be riding their new streetcars before Denver/RTD even breaks ground on the East Colfax BRT."

I know nothing about the Tempe streetcar proposal, but from my experience in Phoenix/Tempe (I lived in the Valley of the Sun for a while) I suspect that planning and construction along any Valley route is relatively "simple" compared to the much denser East Colfax corridor. Colfax no doubt presents more site and situational concerns:more property owners and business and residential voices, a tighter, more complicated infrastructure dance, etc. More players in each layer means longer planning and build-out.

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by PhilipDDG

Take Five: "Here's my pet peeve and it's more with Denver than with RTD

Two projects start their planning at essentially the same time.
Project A - is the East Colfax Connector BRT proposal
Project B - is a streetcar proposal in Tempe AZ
Both projects are essentially the same size and cost. Chances are very good that Tempe residents will be riding their new streetcars before Denver/RTD even breaks ground on the East Colfax BRT."

I know nothing about the Tempe streetcar proposal, but from my experience in Phoenix/Tempe (I lived in the Valley of the Sun for a while) I suspect that planning and construction along any Valley route is relatively "simple" compared to the much denser East Colfax corridor. Colfax no doubt presents more site and situational concerns:more property owners and business and residential voices, a tighter, more complicated infrastructure dance, etc. More players in each layer means longer planning and build-out.

Not to mention the fact that Colfax is a state highway so CDOT must be part of the process.

[PhilipDDG]

Ken--DenverInfill: Not to mention the fact that Colfax is a state highway so CDOT must be part of the process.

I wondered about that but wasn't sure if any of the Tempe route was under the purview of ADOT.

Also, I've been wondering if, once the right-of-way and the grade separation (the same thing?) have been established, can the BRT lanes be converted to rail? Any idea, Ken?

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

In fact, RTD has been making various changes and improvements during 2018. The problem is these changes are all at the margin; they don't or won't 'move the needle.'

That's true, but it's ultimately because a) RTD doesn't have any money, b) its' not going to do anything controversial (like a major bus system overhaul) until after the fare increase/poor people subsidy has been implemented and is in somewhat distant memory , and c) the G and N lines are running.

Here's my pet peeve and it's more with Denver than with RTD

Two projects start their planning at essentially the same time.

Project A - is the East Colfax Connector BRT proposal

Project B - is a streetcar proposal in Tempe AZ

Both projects are essentially the same size and cost. Chances are very good that Tempe residents will be riding their new streetcars before Denver/RTD even breaks ground on the East Colfax BRT.

This is all a factor of money IMO. Tempe secured local funding in 2014(?) while Denver took until 2017. Give Denver three more years, if the BRT isn't running then, then hold on. Any good bureaucracy knows how to keep dolphin on life support until the tide comes in.

Not sure about the same size and cost comparison. Colfax BRT is a 6-mile, ~$175M project. Tempe Streetcar is 3-mile, $180M project.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by PhilipDDG

Take Five: [I]"Here's my pet peeve and it's more with Denver than with RTD

I know nothing about the Tempe streetcar proposal, but from my experience in Phoenix/Tempe (I lived in the Valley of the Sun for a while) I suspect that planning and construction along any Valley route is relatively "simple" compared to the much denser East Colfax corridor. Colfax no doubt presents more site and situational concerns:more property owners and business and residential voices, a tighter, more complicated infrastructure dance, etc. More players in each layer means longer planning and build-out.

Not bad points or thoughts.


Credit ABX


The focus of the Tempe streetcar is along Mill Ave through downtown Tempe so that part would certainly be comparable to Colfax. There's also a stretch along Rio Salado Pkwy along the south side of Tempe Town Lake. That area has seen amazing densification including State Farm's $2 billion, 8,000 employee regional HQ. Other than the already existing congestion I'm not aware there was much controversy here. Another segment goes along Apache Blvd so on the south side of ASU. It has a more of a mix of residential and commercial.

A lot of the difference is 'cultural.' Down here, when they decide they want to do something they go get it done. Caught up in the Trump slo-walk of transit projects, Tempe was one of three cities to receive FTA go-ahead this summer.

[Cirrus]

Oh come on.

While Colfax planning began in earnest in 2012 and thus it will have taken 9-10 years by the supposed 2021-22 opening date, planning for Tempe's streetcar began in 2007 and thus will have taken 14 years by its 2021 opening. Colfax would have to slip all the way to 2026 before it takes as long as the Tempe streetcar.

Meanwhile, Colfax is the single most important surface street in the entire Front Range. It's US-40 and I-70-Business and therefore part of the federal National Highway System and therefore subject to complex federal bureaucracies. It's a veritable battleground of competing priorities, the most difficult and contentious among them probably being on-street parking. Mill Avenue is none of those things. It's vastly less important to the regional street network, not an NHS route, and it has maybe 3 blocks worth of street parking that there isn't a gigantic constituency around. It is not remotely comparable in term of geographic complexity (although adding rails and adding federal funding does give Tempe its own complexities that Colfax isn't facing).

Take off your rose colored glasses.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by PhilipDDG

I wondered about that but wasn't sure if any of the Tempe route was under the purview of ADOT.

Don't recall any of the route being a state road. In the Valley, ADOT isn't what's important. It's MAG which is DRCOG's sister organization except MAG has a $22 billion pot for transportation investments.

Yes, East Colfax could be converted to streetcar at some point.

Originally Posted by wong21fr

This is all a factor of money IMO. Tempe secured local funding in 2014(?) while Denver took until 2017.

Definitely money is VERY important. MAG's $22 billion (metro) pot now reserves about 1/3 for transit operations and projects. They're a nice partner along with the FTA for a city to have.

And what I have I been pounding the table about for months?

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Oh come on.

While Colfax planning began in earnest in 2012 and thus it will have taken 9-10 years by the supposed 2021-22 opening date, planning for Tempe's streetcar began in 2007 and thus will have taken 14 years by its 2021 opening. Colfax would have to slip all the way to 2026 before it takes as long as the Tempe streetcar.

Meanwhile, Colfax is the single most important surface street in the entire Front Range. It's US-40 and I-70-Business and therefore part of the federal National Highway System and therefore subject to complex federal bureaucracies. It's a veritable battleground of competing priorities, the most difficult and contentious among them probably being on-street parking. Mill Avenue is none of those things. It's vastly less important to the regional street network, not an NHS route, and it has maybe 3 blocks worth of street parking that there isn't a gigantic constituency around. It is not remotely comparable in term of geographic complexity (although adding rails and adding federal funding does give Tempe its own complexities that Colfax isn't facing).

Take off your rose colored glasses.

Source

Methinks you're conflating times. Tempe floated, then tabled. My recollection is both projects started serious planning about the same time.

But you're entitled to float whatever excuses you wish.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Definitely money is VERY important. MAG's $22 billion (metro) pot now reserves about 1/3 for transit operations and projects. They're a nice partner along with the FTA for a city to have.

And what I have I been pounding the table about for months?

Some fanciful metro transit tax increase with zero chance of happening in the current environment? You've been pounding the table and the beers.

DenverMoves:Transit, and the future city tax increase that will be coming to fund it, is what's going to provide the money to enhance the transit system in Denver. At this point the rest of the metro will be relying on whatever, if any, funding from the possible state transportation will bring. We will see if anything changes in the next few years.

Oh, and a nice burn by Cirrus.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Some fanciful metro transit tax increase with zero chance of happening in the current environment? You've been pounding the table and the beers.

DenverMoves:Transit, and the future city tax increase that will be coming to fund it, is what's going to provide the money to enhance the transit system in Denver. At this point the rest of the metro will be relying on whatever, if any, funding from the possible state transportation will bring. We will see if anything changes in the next few years.

Oh, and a nice burn by Cirrus.

Yes, props to Cirrus. I've been saying forever that he's smarter than he looks. Certainly I always enjoy his input.

If you think creating a metro pot 30% as large as what Phoenix and Seattle have is not doable, then fine.

There's a reason why metro Phoenix is rated 47th (worst) for congestion even though they are the 11th largest MSA. It's why I assume voters will reup the transportation tax for the 3rd 20-year period in 2024. I think they're pleased with the bang they're getting for their buck.

There's certainly plenty that Denver can and should do. The Streetsblog crowd has a fetish for bike lanes, sidewalks and safe intersections - which is fine, it's their prerogative.

Denver could help at the transit margin but to move the transit needle I suspect it will take more of a robust effort than what Denver can alone provide. Just my opinion.

[TakeFive]

Here we go loopty loo. Here we go loopty li, Here we go loopty loo. All on a Saturday night

Denver Transit Partners, operator of troubled A-Line train, sues RTD for additional payment
September 20, 2018 By KIERAN NICHOLSON/The Denver Post

A rocky relationship between Denver Transit Partners, which operates the University of Colorado A-Line between downtown and Denver International Airport, and the Regional Transportation District has landed in court.

In the lawsuit, DTP accuses RTD of breach of contract, violation of the covenant of good faith and fair dealing and declaratory relief against the district’s refusal to accept change in law and unforeseeable circumstances that prevented DTP from fulfilling its contract during the design and building phase of the project.

Sounds like tons of fun.

“DTP seeks declaratory relief, monetary damages, and extensions of time to which it is entitled” but which RTD has refused to give, the lawsuit claims..

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

There's a reason why metro Phoenix is rated 47th (worst) for congestion even though they are the 11th largest MSA.

Yeah. It's that Phoenix has a much much higher percentage of retired people than normal cities, and a vastly tinier office downtown. Phoenix, because of its nature as a city, doesn't face nearly the commute pressure that most other cities of comparable size face.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Yeah. It's that Phoenix has a much much higher percentage of retired people than normal cities, and a vastly tinier office downtown. Phoenix, because of its nature as a city, doesn't face nearly the commute pressure that most other cities of comparable size face.

Eh, that's a common misperception. If we erased 75% of the retirees, Phoenix would still be the 14th or 15th largest MSA. The biggest retirement area is waay to the NW between the 101 and the new 303. The 'action' is east of I-17. A lot of people move to the Valley 'towards' retirement but bring their skills with them. For example I know one couple who sold their catering business in NJ for $4 million, sold their house and moved to Scottsdale and opened up an Italian restaurant.

Downtown Phoenix has life but office space is not the focus. They did however build 3 office towers (20-35 stories) prior to the recession. But now it's all about residential including 19- and 30-story towers under construction with a 29 story getting close. In addition ASU now has a downtown satellite campus of 12,000 including their new Law School named after Sandra Day O'Connor, the 1st female supreme court justice. It's right on the light rail line that runs right to ASU's main campus in Tempe. Additionally U of A has placed a satellite med school in downtown Phx.

But when it comes to urban office space Tempe has been the hot spot over the last decade including State Farm's 1.6 million S.F. mid-rise campus. Downtown Phx also shares office space with Mid-Town which is on the other side (north) of I-10. 15 minutes east along Camelback Rd, the Biltmore area mimics Cherry Creek and 15 more minutes east is Old Town Scottsdale where a lot of back-office tech has located. Drive north along Scottsdale Rd and you'll see beautiful, classy mid-rise office buildings. This area is filled with real estate, finance/trust, law and accounting firms.

Scottsdale Rd, Tempe and downtown/mid-town Phoenix form what I call an urban triangle.

EDIT: I almost forgot that I saw where Microsoft bought 332 acres in Loudoun Co. VA. That's your neck of the woods, right?

[TakeFive]

This TOD is no toad


Courtesy West Line Village/DIRC Homes

The West Line Village project in Lakewood near W. 10th Ave. and Depew St. is a block from the Sheridan Station on the W Line and is selling fast.

I recall when I rode the W Line how much TOD was springing up here and there. I think it was the Oak Street Station that was especially impressive for TOD action. The W Line was ofc the 1st to open and it takes time for development to follow. The other issue is that this outside-of-downtown development will require local builders as opposed to the national guys downtown - which is fine but again, it all takes time.

[Cirrus]

I didn't say downtown Phoenix doesn't have life. I said it has a small amount of offices, which means it doesn't have the commute pressure of peer cities. Residential buildings, schools, restaurants... those aren't contributing to the 9 am & 5 pm rush hours the way a gigantic office cluster would, because the trips they generate are more spread out at different times of day. Residential high-rises in particular generate amazingly few car trips if they're in a walkable area.

Same deal to your point about the person who semi-retired and opened a restaurant. OK fine, that person is not retired. But they are also not working a job that contributes to the 9 & 5 office rush responsible for rush hour.

Phoenix doesn't have as bad a rush hour as other peer cities because Phoenix's population and land uses aren't generating traffic that peaks at two times per day as much as other cities. Not to say that it doesn't peak at all, just that Phoenix's peaks are smaller enough to make a difference.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Phoenix doesn't have as bad a rush hour as other peer cities because Phoenix's population and land uses aren't generating traffic that peaks at two times per day as much as other cities. Not to say that it doesn't peak at all, just that Phoenix's peaks are smaller enough to make a difference.

OK, you want to focus on commuting; you're still wrong.

Downtown Phoenix has 65,000 employees but if you add in Midtown it's closer to 100,000 and both are along Central Ave.

The number of employees in the urban triangle I described is at least double if not triple that number, I'd have to do some checking. While not in a concentrated area - true - we're still talking triple the number of employees commuting. There's also the Mayo Clinic/American Express site with thousands of employees for example. So there's plenty of commuters out there but yes, they're not all going to the same spot. The advantage of different nodes you say? So some sprawl is better better you say? You've convinced me.

In the 1980's being well behind the eight-ball a vision of freeways was created and approved by voters. In 2004, voters reupped for another 20 years. Freeways that started as 4 lanes, expanded to 6 then 8 and now 10/12 lanes in many areas; obviously they acquired the necessary ROW from the get-go. The last piece of the original plan, the 22-mile South Mountain bypass will open in 2020 as an 8-lane freeway. All freeways have the standard 2+ HOV lanes, 0 miles of toll lanes.

[mhays]

TakeFive, your numbers prove his point -- it's an extremely small downtown for a city of 5,000,000. And not big for 2,500,000 for that matter.