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  #5561  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2018, 12:41 AM
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Construction beginning in 2020 still allows ample opportunity for a change in Surrey leadership and opinion before LRT will take off. After all, Canada cannot seem to get things done these days.
     
     
  #5562  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2018, 1:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Cypherus View Post
Construction beginning in 2020 still allows ample opportunity for a change in Surrey leadership and opinion before LRT will take off. After all, Canada cannot seem to get things done these days.
It’s interesting that they are suppose to begin construction next year back in January until now. It must be a reason for it but I can’t put my finger into it.
     
     
  #5563  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2018, 2:42 AM
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with the bid packages just going out, the next council will get to say decide yay or nay

i wont be surprised if the returned bids turn out to be over-budget or beyond schedule, giving the next (no-lrt) council an easy excuse to cancel the project.

Last edited by jsbertram; Sep 6, 2018 at 9:09 PM.
     
     
  #5564  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2018, 5:03 AM
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You'd think that with the strong chance of not being relected, they'd do it like Site C and rush the start of construction to mid-October....
     
     
  #5565  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2018, 5:23 AM
scryer scryer is offline
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I'm going to continue this discussion on my voting ballot when the time comes.

The LRT Kool-Aid is strong these days.
     
     
  #5566  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2018, 5:26 AM
dpogue dpogue is offline
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The Project will be procured using a Design-Build-Vehicle Supply-Finance-Operation-Maintain-Rehabilitate (DBVFOMR) approach, with a seven-year operations and maintenance period.
DBVFOMR is certainly a mouthful...

Source Documents
     
     
  #5567  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2018, 1:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Firebrand View Post
It’s interesting that they are suppose to begin construction next year back in January until now. It must be a reason for it but I can’t put my finger into it.
I don't know what you're on about. I had it on good authority the system would be complete and operational by the 2018 municipal election!
     
     
  #5568  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2018, 3:01 PM
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DBVFOMR is certainly a mouthful...

Source Documents
LOL DBFM would suffice... not sure what "rehabilitate" means. 7 year period meaning that's when a refresh needs to happen? Surely the whole thing isn't 7 years total.

What was Canada Line again, 30 years?
     
     
  #5569  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2018, 3:45 PM
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LOL DBFM would suffice... not sure what "rehabilitate" means. 7 year period meaning that's when a refresh needs to happen? Surely the whole thing isn't 7 years total.

What was Canada Line again, 30 years?
It's not defined in the docs, but I imagine it's generally part of maintaining the system.

7 years...just enough to work out the bugs & any latent defects before handing it back over.
     
     
  #5570  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2018, 5:24 PM
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Come to think of it, what kind of company would want to lose money? This thing's going to cost almost two billion and stay in the red throughout.
     
     
  #5571  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2018, 9:20 AM
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Too late for SkyTrain in Surrey: TransLink CEO
By Janet Brown
Senior Reporter CKNW
Quote:
TransLink’s CEO Kevin Desmond says it wouldn’t be possible to change course this late in the game.

Surrey Mayor Linda Hepner agrees.

At the same time, Hepner says what happens down the Fraser Highway into Langley is a discussion “for another day.”
https://globalnews.ca/news/4430523/too-l...tm_medium=Twitter&utm_source=%40globalbc
     
     
  #5572  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2018, 11:29 AM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Originally Posted by Feathered Friend View Post
Too late for SkyTrain in Surrey: TransLink CEO
By Janet Brown
Senior Reporter CKNW


https://globalnews.ca/news/4430523/too-l...tm_medium=Twitter&utm_source=%40globalbc
Of course it is never late, experiences in Ontario prove otherwise.

I like how Bordeaux, which has been the poster child of LRT, is now building a metro system 15 years after because the tram system is not capable of handling all the traffic. One politician who pushed the tram hard now regrets and said that a metro system should have been first.
     
     
  #5573  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2018, 12:14 PM
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Of course it is never late, experiences in Ontario prove otherwise.
Hepner basically said this because she wants to feel good about herself when see’s out as mayor. The CEO can fuck off.

I remember when the Confed Line in Ottawa was planned almost exactly what Surrey is doing, but it changed it’s mind (something to do with the Feds not bringing money to them? That was back when Harper was around) and grade-separate it entirely.

I like how in the article they purposely kept the Fraser Hwy section vague even though they are very aware they are planning it as LRT. Then again, the CEO said the same thing way back in December about this, only saying that now it’s “complete” because Trudeau and Horgan officially announced it just now. It’s nothing more than a PR.

In a few years, Surrey will become the LM’s transit lolcow.

Last edited by Firebrand; Sep 7, 2018 at 12:38 PM.
     
     
  #5574  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2018, 4:47 PM
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https://globalnews.ca/news/4432944/surrey-mayoral-candidate-says-majority-of-residents-oppose-lrt/

Quote:
A candidate in Surrey’s mayoral race is touting a party-commissioned poll in his quest to drop light rail transit (LRT) for the city.

Doug McCallum, who is running under the banner of the Safe Surrey Coalition, says the poll, conducted a the end of July, shows overwhelming support for more SkyTrain south of the Fraser, rather than streetcar-style LRT.

McCallum said of 507 people surveyed, 85 per cent said “scrap LRT.”

READ MORE: Surrey LRT to be up and running by 2024, cost set at $1.65 billion

“Everywhere I go, everywhere, I haven’t even run into anybody who wants light rail, not even one person in all the meetings I’ve been,” he said.

McCallum says if elected, he’ll cancel LRT at the first council meeting and put a motion on the table to begin planning for SkyTrain using the money already committed by both the provincial and federal governments.
     
     
  #5575  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2018, 6:18 PM
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What power does Surrey actually have in "cancelling LRT" though? It's not a Surrey project, it's a TransLink project. Or would they do things like not approving building permits kind of like what Burnaby tried to do for the Kinder Morgan pipeline?
     
     
  #5576  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2018, 8:40 PM
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Or would they do things like not approving building permits kind of like what Burnaby tried to do for the Kinder Morgan pipeline?
I would imagine that that would be how Surrey could prevent it via not approving building permits.

I'm not well-versed on government regulations but I imagine that because Kinder Morgan is a federal project that the municipal government gets overthrown therefore making Burnaby's attempts a failure? I know that I'm kind of off-topic but that's a question I am throwing in here.
     
     
  #5577  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2018, 8:48 PM
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TransLink follows the decisions by the Mayor's Council and CEO Desmond is correct in that it has done nothing but following their decisions. Should Surrey's upcoming council take another direction, it will need to influence the Mayor's Council and/or Provincial Government to alter and change its scope.
     
     
  #5578  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2018, 9:31 PM
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Originally Posted by scryer View Post
I would imagine that that would be how Surrey could prevent it via not approving building permits.

I'm not well-versed on government regulations but I imagine that because Kinder Morgan is a federal project that the municipal government gets overthrown therefore making Burnaby's attempts a failure? I know that I'm kind of off-topic but that's a question I am throwing in here.
If this happens then it will make the problem worse than better. Imagine if the Province buys the project out because of delays. Look how that turned out for the Feds.

If the next Surrey council shows up, they’ll probably do what the NDP did with Site C.
     
     
  #5579  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2018, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
What power does Surrey actually have in "cancelling LRT" though? It's not a Surrey project, it's a TransLink project. Or would they do things like not approving building permits kind of like what Burnaby tried to do for the Kinder Morgan pipeline?
TransLink's own studies didn't favour LRT - I believe that was the worst ranked of the options. I can't see TransLink taking issue with LRT being replaced with what they wanted in the first place.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
TransLink follows the decisions by the Mayor's Council and CEO Desmond is correct in that it has done nothing but following their decisions. Should Surrey's upcoming council take another direction, it will need to influence the Mayor's Council and/or Provincial Government to alter and change its scope.
Exactly. It'll be interesting to see how much pull Surrey will have after the election. If they can get Vancouver on board then the rest of the board will likely follow suit, just like they are now. The Province is following the wishes of the mayors, so they shouldn't have a problem with a technology change.
     
     
  #5580  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2018, 3:34 AM
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The final SNG LRT business case documents have been up on the LRT website for awhile now in case anyone wanted to look them over. The two documents of note are the "Project Business Case" and the "Strategic Analysis Options", which includes comparisons of the selected LRT alternative with BRT.

https://surreylightrail.ca/DocumentLibrary

The strategic options report is interesting. This is the one trying to explain why LRT was chosen and why Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) as an alternative is rejected. In almost all areas the BRT alternative matches the performance of the LRT (same travel times, etc.) and has far lower operating costs (in fact their expectation is that building BRT would result in an operating PROFIT of $13 million each year). The argument against BRT banks on the assumption that a BRT would be "at capacity" and unexpandable, and would have to be replaced by/upgraded to LRT at some point.

However, the study is based on the assumption that the BRT alternative is capped at under 2,000 pphpd.

The study's explanation is that frequencies of over 5 minutes are considered to be unreliable (going to, say, 3 minutes would constrain the traffic signal priority and would cause delays for other road users). However, it's clear that the capabilities of BRT as a technology are completely underestimated. Here's where I take issue:
  • No consideration of different high-capacity vehicle types (i.e. 24m bi-articulated buses, double decker buses)
  • No consideration of interlining benefits (i.e. routes could extend beyond Newton & Guildford termini, removing transfer penalty to other routes)
  • Ignores that the frequency issue could be addressed by employing bus platooning (scheduling convoys of two or more buses together). This solution is being considered by Los Angeles's Metro Orange Line to increase capacity. Another way to justify platooning is that buses could split towards different destinations beyond the busway.
  • Ignores capital cost headroom to add features like station passing lanes and aerial (elevated) stations. Where is the "enhanced BRT" alternative?
  • Ignores operating cost headroom (again, $13m operating PROFIT with BRT) to double or triple capacity any time by employing bus platooning
  • Concedes that BRT at over 5 minutes would cause "worsening congestion" even though the LRT would cause same worsening congestion by-design.
  • Vehicle capacity used in the study appears to be grossly understated (the "planning capacity" for a bus on the BRT option is 85 passengers. This is less than the stated maximum capacity for both double decker buses (~100) and articulated buses (~120) and far less than the maximum capacity for bi-articulated buses (~180).)
  • Doesn't consider offset to negative impacts if BRT is phased (i.e. delay 104 Ave portion until certain that a busway can be built while retaining 4 lanes of traffic)
  • Little consideration of upcoming technological advances (i.e. autonomous rail rapid transit).
----------------------

For everyone curious about the expected benefit-cost ratio (BCR) for the SNG LRT, yes, it is below 1.0.

Last edited by xd_1771; Sep 9, 2018 at 4:22 AM.
     
     
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