Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[J.OT13]

They are now filling up the central shaft on Queen at Kent.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

And in 1951 (3 years before Toronto's subway opened), they had a CMA population of 1,262,000, which is close to Ottawa-Gatineau's 2016 CMA population of 1,323,783 (and not far from the Ontario only portion of 991,726).

1951 was at the start of one of the largest population growth periods in Canadian history. 2018 is in an era of modest population growth. Ottawa's growth rate has been in the 1% range in recent years, it will take hundreds of years to reach a population level comparable to Toronto's in the 1980s ( when the subway started to have capacity problems).

[J.OT13]

Toronto's subway system is supplemented by streetcars and GO Transit. It also has a much higher capacity. We could even argue that Toronto has two lines going downtown (with Line 1's "U"). Ottawa's backbone is a single E/W line that serves as both commuter rail and urban subway. Our capacity is also lower than TO's. Confederation will be over capacity in less time than TO's Line 1. Though we still have a solid 30-35 years.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Also, the only people on a 30 minute bus ride from the Confederation Line or Trillium Line after Stage 2 are people who live in Stittsville or the edge of Kanata or rural residents.

30 minutes per schedule, or 30 minutes in the real world?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Toronto's subway system is supplemented by streetcars and GO Transit. It also has a much higher capacity. We could even argue that Toronto has two lines going downtown (with Line 1's "U"). Ottawa's backbone is a single E/W line that serves as both commuter rail and urban subway. Our capacity is also lower than TO's. Confederation will be over capacity in less time than TO's Line 1. Though we still have a solid 30-35 years.

For Line 1 to be over design capacity, we're talking peak loads approaching those of Toronto's subways. Put in ATC and run 5 car trains every 2 minutes and the Confederation Line could carry as many riders as the YUS subway (Line 1) does today. It'll be more than 30 years to exceed that. Confederation Line ridership could double from today, and would still be below what the Bloor-Danforth subway (Line 2) in Toronto carries today.

Where do people come up with such far-fetched scenarios? Do y'all envision Ottawa getting some kind of unprecedented growth spurt or some kind of energy crisis doubling the cost of gas overnight?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

30 minutes per schedule, or 30 minutes in the real world?

Post stage 2, where do you think anybody will be more than 30 in real world from higher order transit?

70% of Ottawa will be within 5km. Given that local buses average about 15 kph in traffic, that means 70% of Ottawa will be within a maximum of a 20 minute bus ride from an LRT or BRT. Most will be far, far closer.

There will be cases where it makes more sense not to take LRT or BRT (travelling on Montreal heading to the core for example). But that absolutely does not mean that you're far from higher order transit.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

More riders. Why would they cut service? Also, assuming a 50:50 split at Lincoln Fields, means frequency in both Nepean and Kanata will be half of the central corridor. So anything more than say 5 mins on the central corridor will mean 10 min headways at Moodie and Baseline. So they'll need at least 3 min frequencies on the central corridor at peak to even be close to reasonable on the branches.

I could see a scenario where they short-turn trains in the east-end during rush. But that'd be a real stretch given the ridership in Orleans.

I wasn't suggesting reducing service in the central corridor.

[CityTech]

Anyone know what the rules for bikes on the trains will be? I live in Westboro, right next to Westboro station, and work in the core. In nice weather I'm considering just biking to Tunney's rather than awkwardly take the Transitway bus for one stop but knowing Ottawa all the bike parking spots at the station are going to be full by like 6 in the friggen morning (seriously, why does everyone go to work so early here?? I used to live in Toronto and there 9-5 meant.. you know, 9-5!) so I'll have to take the bike on the train but are they going to let us? I heard they are but I find that hard to believe, bikes will seriously crowd the trains.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Anyone know what the rules for bikes on the trains will be? I live in Westboro, right next to Westboro station, and work in the core. In nice weather I'm considering just biking to Tunney's rather than awkwardly take the Transitway bus for one stop but knowing Ottawa all the bike parking spots at the station are going to be full by like 6 in the friggen morning (seriously, why does everyone go to work so early here?? I used to live in Toronto and there 9-5 meant.. you know, 9-5!) so I'll have to take the bike on the train but are they going to let us? I heard they are but I find that hard to believe, bikes will seriously crowd the trains.

Last I heard, bikes will be allowed on trains at all times (no exclusions during rush hour for example).

[jchilds72]

The Ready for Rail section of the OCTranspo website says "You will be able to bring your bike onboard the train. Bikes will be allowed in the first car of every train, in the Cooperative Seating area."

[zzptichka]

I think it will sort itself out. Taking a bike through elevators and faregates is a headache on its own very few passengers would like to go through on a regular basis. Doubt you'd see more than occasional one on a train like now on O-Train.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

I think it will sort itself out. Taking a bike through elevators and faregates is a headache on its own very few passengers would like to go through on a regular basis. Doubt you'd see more than occasional one on a train like now on O-Train.

The wide accessible faregates are easy to bring a bike through.

Also I think all of the stations have bike ramps along the side of staircases so elevators wouldn't be needed.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

30 minutes per schedule, or 30 minutes in the real world?

Exactly. We all know that when you throw a extra bus to bus transfer in, it can get very unpredictable. Predictable transfers with short waiting times is difficult to achieve and unpredictability is what turns off many people from transit. It doesn't take many times of just missing a transfer and having to wait 28 minutes before you are looking for other transport options.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Anyone know what the rules for bikes on the trains will be? I live in Westboro, right next to Westboro station, and work in the core. In nice weather I'm considering just biking to Tunney's rather than awkwardly take the Transitway bus for one stop but knowing Ottawa all the bike parking spots at the station are going to be full by like 6 in the friggen morning (seriously, why does everyone go to work so early here?? I used to live in Toronto and there 9-5 meant.. you know, 9-5!) so I'll have to take the bike on the train but are they going to let us? I heard they are but I find that hard to believe, bikes will seriously crowd the trains.

Bikes permitted at all times. They might walk back on that though. I can see *a lot* of people in Westboro wanting to do exactly what you're planning on doing, as Tunney's is a short bike (but not a short walk) from Westboro and the Scott St MUP makes it an easy trip too. I hope they add enough bike parking at Tunney's.

[1overcosc]

As for the Trillium Line and possible future capacity concerns going downtown and second tunnel, I have an idea.

In 30-40 years, if the Confederation Line starts to get a little clogged, we can extend Trillium into the southern part of the CBD, like this:



I put it on Lisgar Street, terminating at uOttawa. I think that's a good spot.. north enough to serve the existing CBD (so that Trillium passengers will remain on the new line instead of transferring to the original line Bayview), and far enough south to not be redundant and allow for future growth in the Centretown area.

I imagine that the tunnel would start between Gladstone and Bayview, temporarily using the space the MUP goes through to dig through a portal. By the time it gets to Bayview, it will be underground. The black line is a 180m underground concourse that can connect the two lines at Bayview.

The tunnel would terminate at a new underground level of uOttawa station. Going forward, the line could be extended eastward into Sandy Hill & Vanier. Having it interline to Hurdman could be cool but probably unworkable as the line would be deep underground at uOttawa and there's no room to bring it back up to surface to meet up with the Confederation Line.

I don't think this will be needed for another 30-40 years or so, but IMO, they should put something like this on the books for now so future development doesn't impair our ability to build it eventually.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

I think it will sort itself out. Taking a bike through elevators and faregates is a headache on its own very few passengers would like to go through on a regular basis. Doubt you'd see more than occasional one on a train like now on O-Train.

I have taken my bike onto the subway in Toronto a few times. It is not that much of a challenge.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Exactly. We all know that when you throw a extra bus to bus transfer in, it can get very unpredictable. Predictable transfers with short waiting times is difficult to achieve and unpredictability is what turns off many people from transit. It doesn't take many times of just missing a transfer and having to wait 28 minutes before you are looking for other transport options.

Post-stage 2, why would you be doing a bus-bus to transfer?

Again, 70% of Ottawa will be within 5 km of a rail line. That's a 20 min bus ride from a train station. If you're doing a bus-bus transfer then, you're either not a core-bound commuter, or you're in that 30% that lives pretty far out.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

As for the Trillium Line and possible future capacity concerns going downtown and second tunnel, I have an idea.

In 30-40 years, if the Confederation Line starts to get a little clogged, we can extend Trillium into the southern part of the CBD, like this:



I put it on Lisgar Street, terminating at uOttawa. I think that's a good spot.. north enough to serve the existing CBD (so that Trillium passengers will remain on the new line instead of transferring to the original line Bayview), and far enough south to not be redundant and allow for future growth in the Centretown area.

I imagine that the tunnel would start between Gladstone and Bayview, temporarily using the space the MUP goes through to dig through a portal. By the time it gets to Bayview, it will be underground. The black line is a 180m underground concourse that can connect the two lines at Bayview.

The tunnel would terminate at a new underground level of uOttawa station. Going forward, the line could be extended eastward into Sandy Hill & Vanier. Having it interline to Hurdman could be cool but probably unworkable as the line would be deep underground at uOttawa and there's no room to bring it back up to surface to meet up with the Confederation Line.

I don't think this will be needed for another 30-40 years or so, but IMO, they should put something like this on the books for now so future development doesn't impair our ability to build it eventually.

It'll be much longer than that to max out. But even if you're right. Who the heck puts two subways 500m apart? That's a 6-8 min walk. And it's closer than even the Yonge and University lines in Toronto. People are acting like Ottawa is going to become Tokyo just because a tunnel with 3 stations was built. That turn at Bayview would also make for a terrible transfer to the Confederation Line, and Gatineau's LRT at that point. Never going to happen.


If the Confederation Line maxes out, the bulk of the ridership will still be coming from the East and West. Not the South. So you'd be better off building a line that's parallel to the Confederation Line (like Carling) than trying to turn the Trillium Line at Bayview into an East-West line. Carling offers tremendous potential to build a Transit City style surface LRT from Bronson all the way to March (19km), with a short 1.5 km tunnel to O'Connor. I'd be highly surprised if this was not the next East-West corridor. And if they were still inclined to build something in the core, it would truly be shocking if it wasn't at least far south as Somerset. And even more surprised if it wasn't on Gladstone with the Trillium Station as a transfer or even terminus. And that's of course, if there's a business case, for a 3 km subway from the Trillium Line to Elgin.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It'll be much longer than that to max out. But even if you're right. Who the heck puts two subways 500m apart? That's a 6-8 min walk. And it's closer than even the Yonge and University lines in Toronto. People are acting like Ottawa is going to become Tokyo just because a tunnel with 3 stations was built. That turn at Bayview would also make for a terrible transfer to the Confederation Line, and Gatineau's LRT at that point. Never going to happen.

Montreal's Orange and Green lines are only around 500-600m apart through the downtown.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Montreal's Orange and Green lines are only around 500-600m apart through the downtown.

For them driven by construction techniques and geography with their entire downtown sandwiched between Mount Royal and the river. From the park to the canal is not even 2.5km. Ottawa has no such pressing geographic considerations. And the closer you get to Parliament, the more limitations there are on height, effectively limiting density closer to the Confederation Line.

I'd also argue that Montreal would not have built their lines as closely, if they were doing so today.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Post stage 2, where do you think anybody will be more than 30 in real world from higher order transit?

In the Black Hole that is the northeast corner of the inner urban area.

70% of Ottawa will be within 5km.

That statistic means pretty much nothing.

Given that local buses average about 15 kph in traffic

Buses from Beechwood and Montreal Road typically run about 5km/h in traffic during the existing ambient conditions in morning "rush" hour.