Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

Could they dump spoil into rail cars for disposal from GN Way?

They normally would have a long conveyor belt to the original entrance (i.e. GNW) where spoil is loaded onto dump trucks. That operation would - presumably - prevent finishing of the tunnel and stations with tracks, communications, etc. so long as the conveyor is operating.
If however, you move that exit point (i.e. to Arbutus for tunnel west of there), the unnecessary conveyor (east of Arbutus) could be dismantled and that part of the tunnel finished.

The issue is further complicated if its a twin bore with consecutive parallel passes. (i.e. for Canada Line the TBM entered at OV and was removed at Waterfront, and reassembled at OV for the 2nd parallel tunnel to Waterfront).

[AMTDGT]

Originally Posted by M00dy

I bet that can be dealt with somehow. If they start from Great Northern Way moving west towards an intermediate receiving pit at Arbutus, they could then install a second launching structure at Arbutus to continue towards UBC.

There would be a bit of a process to bore past the Arbutus receiving pit, remove sacrificial rings, install the launch structure against the in-place rings, and then continue on.

Would allow tunnel fit-out & track to progress on phase 1.

Why not just tunnel and line to the first station of Phase 2 (Mac Donald???) and pull the TBM there if there isn't the $ to go all the way. In this case you would only finish the tunnel, (lights rails, etc) to Arbutus. I'm not an expert but doing that may add 3 months to the drilling (and maybe $50million), but would not delay much the finishing of Phase 1. On the C Line they were building stations while running spoil trains through them. They would just bridge over the hole while it was waiting for the phase 2 start up

When the go ahead for phase 2 happens, the tunnelling, extraction etc would not impact the already running phase 1 section, except maybe for a weekend when they connect Phase 2 rails to the Arbutus station rails. It would also speed up the phase 2 start up and the box would eventually because MacDonald station. In reality they could even run trains to UBC while finishing the MacDonald station.

I could even imagine running a supply/spoil train from phase 2 to the Finning lands and back once an hour with little impact on service and minimal manual block control.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by AMTDGT

Why not just tunnel and line to the first station of Phase 2 (Mac Donald???) and pull the TBM there if there isn't the $ to go all the way. In this case you would only finish the tunnel, (lights rails, etc) to Arbutus. I'm not an expert but doing that may add 3 months to the drilling (and maybe $50million), but would not delay much the finishing of Phase 1. On the C Line they were building stations while running spoil trains through them. They would just bridge over the hole while it was waiting for the phase 2 start up

I seriously doubt they would only tunnel to Arbutus and then abruptly stop - for starters there would need to be space for tail track. I think we can agree that having to single track to Arbutus station would be terrible compromise until Phase 2 is open. So they'll tunnel for some distance beyond for proper train running and so there wouldn't be a disruption when they continue to Phase 2.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by AMTDGT

Why not just tunnel and line to the first station of Phase 2 (Mac Donald???) and pull the TBM there if there isn't the $ to go all the way. In this case you would only finish the tunnel, (lights rails, etc) to Arbutus. I'm not an expert but doing that may add 3 months to the drilling (and maybe $50million), but would not delay much the finishing of Phase 1. On the C Line they were building stations while running spoil trains through them. They would just bridge over the hole while it was waiting for the phase 2 start up

When the go ahead for phase 2 happens, the tunnelling, extraction etc would not impact the already running phase 1 section, except maybe for a weekend when they connect Phase 2 rails to the Arbutus station rails. It would also speed up the phase 2 start up and the box would eventually because MacDonald station. In reality they could even run trains to UBC while finishing the MacDonald station.

I could even imagine running a supply/spoil train from phase 2 to the Finning lands and back once an hour with little impact on service and minimal manual block control.

Could the spoil possibly be used for an infill project?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Could the spoil possibly be used for an infill project?

You mean like Lego bricks? I suppose it's possible they could be used for loading like they do in Richmond. It's all a question of is it as durable as the concrete bricks they use now, and the cost (just because they'd be using waste material doesn't automatically mean it would be cheaper).

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I seriously doubt they would only tunnel to Arbutus and then abruptly stop - for starters there would need to be space for tail track. I think we can agree that having to single track to Arbutus station would be terrible compromise until Phase 2 is open. So they'll tunnel for some distance beyond for proper train running and so there wouldn't be a disruption when they continue to Phase 2.

Yeah west of Arbutus station, there should be space for a scissor crossover and tail tracks that can fit the longest train.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by AMTDGT

Why not just tunnel and line to the first station of Phase 2 (Mac Donald???) and pull the TBM there if there isn't the $ to go all the way. In this case you would only finish the tunnel, (lights rails, etc) to Arbutus. I'm not an expert but doing that may add 3 months to the drilling (and maybe $50million), but would not delay much the finishing of Phase 1. On the C Line they were building stations while running spoil trains through them. They would just bridge over the hole while it was waiting for the phase 2 start up

When the go ahead for phase 2 happens, the tunnelling, extraction etc would not impact the already running phase 1 section, except maybe for a weekend when they connect Phase 2 rails to the Arbutus station rails. It would also speed up the phase 2 start up and the box would eventually because MacDonald station. In reality they could even run trains to UBC while finishing the MacDonald station.

I could even imagine running a supply/spoil train from phase 2 to the Finning lands and back once an hour with little impact on service and minimal manual block control.

that's 7/10 of a mile of tracks and tunnels heading to an unbuilt station - and not earning money. perhaps they may build tunnels for a block or so west of Arbutus to lay-up a few trains between the rush-hours or overnight (so they don't need to dead-head trains from Edmonds or Falcon to start the service day, or dead-head them back again after the end of service)

the nytimes recently had an story trying to figure out why ny subways cost over $1 billion/mile to build when the rest of the world can build subways for $150 million/mile. using their estimate, this excess tunnel might cost $105 million or more. as we've seen in the past, when the bids come in & they are (not surprisingly) over the budget expected by translink, 'unneeded' parts of phase I will be chopped to get back under the budgeted amount. any non-revenue, non-safety items like this excess 7/10 mile of unfinished 'tunnels to no-where' that a passenger won't miss will be discarded.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I seriously doubt they would only tunnel to Arbutus and then abruptly stop - for starters there would need to be space for tail track. I think we can agree that having to single track to Arbutus station would be terrible compromise until Phase 2 is open. So they'll tunnel for some distance beyond for proper train running and so there wouldn't be a disruption when they continue to Phase 2.

i'm not clear why they would only build a single track to Arbutus, knowing that phase II is coming soon. there was no issue with building both TBM tracks to Waterfront.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

i'm not clear why they would only build a single track to Arbutus, knowing that phase II is coming soon. there was no issue with building both TBM tracks to Waterfront.

Same reason Brighouse has only one track. Pennypinching is about short-term financial savings, not common sense.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

i'm not clear why they would only build a single track to Arbutus, knowing that phase II is coming soon. there was no issue with building both TBM tracks to Waterfront.

they wouldn't do that. I'm 99% sure they would never build a single track to Arbutus, no matter how cheap they are, they wouldn't do that.

they did that in Richmond and YVR because they knew it would 99% never be extended.

i am just wondering if it will be 1 tunnel bore, Evergreen-Extension, or 2 tunnel bore, Canada-Line.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i am just wondering if it will be 1 tunnel bore, Evergreen-Extension, or 2 tunnel bore, Canada-Line.

Handy reference - bottom line, single bore is cheaper and less disruptive, but much harder to build a station around. So they like to stick with double bore unless there's engineering issues (e.g. Burnaby Mountain).

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

they wouldn't do that. I'm 99% sure they would never build a single track to Arbutus, no matter how cheap they are, they wouldn't do that.

they did that in Richmond and YVR because they knew it would 99% never be extended.

i am just wondering if it will be 1 tunnel bore, Evergreen-Extension, or 2 tunnel bore, Canada-Line.

extend past YVR? next stop Parksville?

i'd be very surprised if Richmond never extends their spur further south

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Handy reference - bottom line, single bore is cheaper and less disruptive, but much harder to build a station around. So they like to stick with double bore unless there's engineering issues (e.g. Burnaby Mountain).

didn't the contractor for evergreen choose single bore because it was supposed to be cheaper and faster to build?

in the end neither was true, causing the entire extension to go over budget and open about 6 months late. the builder even trucked a test train to the completed tracks east of the tunnel (because the tunnel was still being built) to try and get the project back on schedule

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

didn't the contractor for evergreen choose single bore because it was supposed to be cheaper and faster to build?

in the end neither was true, causing the entire extension to go over budget and open about 6 months late. the builder even trucked a test train to the completed tracks east of the tunnel (because the tunnel was still being built) to try and get the project back on schedule

Could be, but I was led to believe that they chose it because Burnaby Mountain is hard granite and it would be less of a headache to only drill through it once.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

extend past YVR? next stop Parksville?

i'd be very surprised if Richmond never extends their spur further south

I would be shocked if the line got extended further south into Richmond in my lifetime. Very soon after Richmond-Brighouse it becomes a quiet suburban area. No chance in hell that will allowed to be changed with an overhead SkyTrain line running through those neighbourhoods. It'll also be a very long time until those areas get anywhere close to the density that'd be needed for that.

[waves]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I would be shocked if the line got extended further south into Richmond in my lifetime. Very soon after Richmond-Brighouse it becomes a quiet suburban area. No chance in hell that will allowed to be changed with an overhead SkyTrain line running through those neighbourhoods. It'll also be a very long time until those areas get anywhere close to the density that'd be needed for that.

I don't think I would call it a "quiet" suburban area. Even south of Brighouse No.3 road is a major arterial and has a number of different commercial businesses along the next four major blocks. Most of the homes are also mid density town homes. I don't think an extension through to Ladner, Tsawwassen and the Ferry Terminal in about 50 years time from now is that unreasonable. But anyways, we digress, this topic is about the Millennium Line rather than the Canada Line.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

i would personally prefer a double bore tunnel. i am a fan of centre platforms. i cant say i like how on the Canada-Line you need to go down into the station, then down under the tracks, then back up to the platform on the other side.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i would personally prefer a double bore tunnel. i am a fan of centre platforms. i cant say i like how on the Canada-Line you need to go down into the station, then down under the tracks, then back up to the platform on the other side.

Granville and Burrard stations have stacked platforms because they were retrofitted in an existing tunnel, which was originally used for double-decked freights. I can understand that excuse, but the Canada Line was cheaped out. (Let’s just follow waves’ word and move on.)

Double-boring would put an extra strain on TransLink’s budget, which needs to be used on other projects, including Surrey’s glory tram . But it won’t be as dreaded as boring through Burnaby Mountain, or if the contractor is The Boring Company.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

...But it won’t be as dreaded as boring through Burnaby Mountain, or if the contractor is The Boring Company.

What's the deal with the Boring Company, anyhow? I get Tesla's innovation - reduce battery costs to make electric cars feasible. And SpaceX is reducing launch costs through reusability and more assembly-line like rocket manufacturing. But what technology is the Boring Company using that's supposed to revolutionize the tunneling industry?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

What's the deal with the Boring Company, anyhow? I get Tesla's innovation - reduce battery costs to make electric cars feasible. And SpaceX is reducing launch costs through reusability and more assembly-line like rocket manufacturing. But what technology is the Boring Company using that's supposed to revolutionize the tunneling industry?

According to the FAQ on the official site:
- Smaller tunnels
- Faster/automated/more powerful electric TBMs
- Converting excavation dirt into bricks into tunnel supports

Whether any of it will actually work, only time will tell.