The real problem with Vancouver’s outrageous house prices

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Neither of those examples support your supposed point. One was made based on the very real fact that ICBC was withdrawing insurance from supercar buyers based on excessive claims (which are a direct consequence of bad driving) . The other pointed squarely at the wealth flowing out from China. Are you still denying that as a big factor in house prices?

No worries. TBH, the past few pages have been pretty good with a good exchange of ideas.

I'm gonna step back now, and await what rabbit holes you'll take people down.

[Abii]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Your unsourced, vague chart is useless. All it means is developers think the bubble is going to pop soon. And it looks like it's just CoV, not that I can tell because there's no info.

lol at Dubai, you mean the soulless husk of a city built on oil money by a dictatorship? The one that's been decaying since 2008? Nothing to envy or emulate there - just lessons to learn to avoid becoming the next Dubai.

Making home ownership for citizens only would absolutely help a lot, but in addition to banning foreign ownership we need tougher immigration laws with closed loopholes too.

My parents are also immigrants (American and Dutch) so stop with the SUPER PLAYED OUT xenophobic accusations. I've already checked out of this city - my immigration papers are being processed. This is about theoretically saving Vancouver, which I don't think is going to happen obviously.

Other cities/countries have at least attempted to protect their country from foreign money laundering, Vancouver has suffered more than just about everyone, so don't pretend it's impossible.

fuuuu sakes. I didn't accuse you or anyone else of racism. Read the post properly. I was saying that my grandparents could have put their house under our name when we became citizens. That was the point of that example. Basically banning foreign ownership won't do anything when every family has at least one person here that either a perm. resident or a citizen. You put the property in their name, wait a few years till you become a citizen yourself and then transfer the title to your name. You can also put it under a corporation's assets etc...

As far as the source, it's from Vancitycondoguide.com
The realtor that prepares it takes the data directly out of the MLS. Do you have something to say about the data or did you knock it for the sake of having something to say?

Nobody cares what you think about Dubai. I hate Dubai myself as well. It's a 30 year old city in a country that's gone from having a few hundred thousand people to close to 10 million in a generation. Not a place I could live in. I used it as an extreme example of how you could control real estate prices by having adequate supply. Before you blow a gasket, think.

@ the person that said you can't purchase property in Dubai: you can. You can't own land. But you can own property (condos etc...).

[whatnext]

Case in point, Urban Land Banking:

Due to my background, I’m invited to quite a few privileged conversations. One of those occurred a few months ago, when a Beijing-based money manager sent my office an email, and asked if I could meet him in Toronto for coffee. He was fairly vague, but said he just wanted to have a casual conversation about real estate in Canada. Turns out he owns Canadian property, and wanted to know if I felt he should sell. We met a few days later, and I told him what I tell everyone: If you’re buying a house to live in, it doesn’t matter. If you’re living in it, it’s a lifestyle choice. Enjoy your home, even if you only occasionally use it. If you make a profit on the sale, that’s a bonus.

Then half-jokingly, I laughed and said “if you’re a land banker, it’s a little different. There’s a lot of building in Toronto, prices climbed an unsustainable amount, and the market presents significant downside risks in my opinion.” He didn’t laugh. He looked at the quiet dude he showed up with, and nodded. Turns out he was land banking, and had 15 properties. They were already on the fence about selling, but they wanted to see what I thought. They were not tenanted, so it would be quick and easy he explained. This is urban land banking...

...Note: If there’s push back about your land deposits, just declare “racism” any time someone says people aren’t occupying those homes. It’s especially effective if you’re land-banking in the same city you live in. It seems like a jerky thing to do, but it could preserve your capital for much longer. If that fails, say that it’s impossible to collect a vacant tax cost effectively. Which makes no sense, but even the Mayor of Toronto has said it. Obviously if they wanted to fix the issue, they would raise the tax until it was cost effective. They don’t want to fix it, they just need to save votes...

https://betterdwelling.com/urban-land-ba...guide-ruining-local-real-estate-markets/

[whatnext]

This would be funny if it weren't so sad:

Home values in Vancouver highest after Silicon Valley, while incomes just ahead of Columbus

Median home values in Vancouver are known to be the highest in Canada, but it’s a whole other stratosphere to see them come in third in North America, up there with the economic powerhouses of Silicon Valley and San Francisco.

And then, it’s a dramatic shift of the eye to see that median household incomes in Vancouver are near the bottom of a list of 51 North American metropolitan areas, sandwiched between two much sleepier places: Lancaster, Pennsylvania and Columbus, Ohio,

Vancouver was number 50.

“Columbus has a hockey team so I knew where that was, but I had to look up Lancaster,” said Andy Yan, director of Simon Fraser University’s City Program...

https://theprovince.com/business/local-b...wcm/d69956a4-3c5a-4359-91b6-4273aa09070e

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by whatnext

This would be funny if it weren't so sad:

Home values in Vancouver highest after Silicon Valley, while incomes just ahead of Columbus

Median home values in Vancouver are known to be the highest in Canada, but it’s a whole other stratosphere to see them come in third in North America, up there with the economic powerhouses of Silicon Valley and San Francisco.

And then, it’s a dramatic shift of the eye to see that median household incomes in Vancouver are near the bottom of a list of 51 North American metropolitan areas, sandwiched between two much sleepier places: Lancaster, Pennsylvania and Columbus, Ohio,

Vancouver was number 50.

“Columbus has a hockey team so I knew where that was, but I had to look up Lancaster,” said Andy Yan, director of Simon Fraser University’s City Program...

https://theprovince.com/business/local-b...wcm/d69956a4-3c5a-4359-91b6-4273aa09070e

Is this study comparing municipalities or metropolitan areas? I've seen similar rankings that exaggerate Vancouver because they are comparing Vancouver proper with regions in other areas.

EDIT: Nevermind, he compared metropolitan areas. Still, I think it would be better if transportation costs were also factored in, since they also contribute to affordability.

[ssiguy]

This exemplifies how Vancouver real estate is completely detached from the rest of the economy.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This exemplifies how Vancouver real estate is completely detached from the rest of the economy.

It has been for sometime, but I think the disparity is becoming comical in its severity.

I can't imagine living here and not being consumed by housing prices and real estate in general.

It would be so neat if affordable housing was a given.

It seems so surreal to me that for how advanced we have become with gadgets, tech, satellites, AI, robotics, etc.

We still cant figure out how to reasonably and affordably provide the most basic human need behind food; shelter.

It really is mind boggling when looked at from an objective birds eye view.

[misher]

What is truly mind boggling is that we have a housing crisis yet the government has increased taxes to build housing to more than double the rest of the country. It has then heavily restricted density and supply. You can read the below as my evidence/source. Or look at how our gas taxes are also 2x the avg in the rest of the country as evidence that we are being taxes to death while the government is doing their best to shift blame. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_fuel_taxes_in_Canada

https://globalnews.ca/news/4208533/vancouver-detached-home-building-costs/

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by misher

What is truly mind boggling is that we have a housing crisis yet the government has increased taxes to build housing to more than double the rest of the country. It has then heavily restricted density and supply. You can read the below as my evidence/source. Or look at how our gas taxes are also 2x the avg in the rest of the country as evidence that we are being taxes to death while the government is doing their best to shift blame. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_fuel_taxes_in_Canada

https://globalnews.ca/news/4208533/vancouver-detached-home-building-costs/

What taxes are you referring to when you claim "the government has increased taxes to build housing to more than double the rest of the country"

You do realize the BC Liberals brought in the carbon tax, don't you?

And it would be pretty hard to build those transit nodes you want more density around without the transit tax.

[misher]

Originally Posted by whatnext

What taxes are you referring to when you claim "the government has increased taxes to build housing to more than double the rest of the country"

You do realize the BC Liberals brought in the carbon tax, don't you?

And it would be pretty hard to build those transit nodes you want more density around without the transit tax.

Hey I didn't say vote Liberal or NDP there, I was trashing our governments in general Even if one party brings it in if the other doesn't revoke it that means they support it.

I was just pointing out that we have added insanely high costs to build housing here. The Vancouver building code, fire code, etc. is insanely restrictive and the permit process is slow and inefficient.

When I pay a tax I want to see a direct correlation between tax increases and increased services. Instead if we look at comparable cities our building costs are 2x or more yet we don't see a 2x difference in services. It sometimes feels like most of our money goes to a black hole on main & hastings.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by misher

Hey I didn't say vote Liberal or NDP there, I was trashing our governments in general Even if one party brings it in if the other doesn't revoke it that means they support it.

I was just pointing out that we have added insanely high costs to build housing here. The Vancouver building code, fire code, etc. is insanely restrictive and the permit process is slow and inefficient.

When I pay a tax I want to see a direct correlation between tax increases and increased services. Instead if we look at comparable cities our building costs are 2x or more yet we don't see a 2x difference in services. It sometimes feels like most of our money goes to a black hole on main & hastings.

To be fair, a lot of programs funded by taxes go to social supports that you may never hear about, but make all the difference for those with lower incomes or disabilities or something like that.

[GenWhy?]

It's my understanding that the majority of DCCs, DCLs and CACs (the bulk of fees collected off new construction (like strata)) go towards sewer/water upgrades, affordable housing in its many forms, childcare services, community centres and amenities, and parks. I mean... for a new project we did just have to pay almost $100k for a rezoning application fee, which adds up but we're paying for an overstressed and worked system and they just underwent a HUGE shake-up in head staff! Which I have my fingers crossed will be a good positive change.

The "anti-speculation" measures on a local civic and provincial standpoint have eased land prices to a degree, which helps the majority of our biggest costs. As well, parking relaxation updates are being implemented which is good news for less parkade space.


But if we're talking SF homes... then don't tear down and build a new SF home in Vancouver proper. It's expensive, inefficient, and the City knows it's not the future of their concept of City Building.

As far as "taxes" are concerned, at a municipal level, I'm not sure they've increased that much beyond necessity and inflation to maintain current services and upgrades.

[GenWhy?]

I mean, if we had zoning and City policy that allowed this then we'd be in a little bit less of a situation.


Parking minimums, unit maximums, primary/secondary unit definitions and limitations, and the emotional attachment to SF homes as they don't even exist rarely to this day (for most contain 3 homes) is what is one of the biggest factors in a lack of housing supply (strata, rental, co-op) as well as land / development cost.

[misher]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

It's my understanding that the majority of DCCs, DCLs and CACs (the bulk of fees collected off new construction (like strata)) go towards sewer/water upgrades, affordable housing in its many forms, childcare services, community centres and amenities, and parks. I mean... for a new project we did just have to pay almost $100k for a rezoning application fee, which adds up but we're paying for an overstressed and worked system and they just underwent a HUGE shake-up in head staff! Which I have my fingers crossed will be a good positive change.

The "anti-speculation" measures on a local civic and provincial standpoint have eased land prices to a degree, which helps the majority of our biggest costs. As well, parking relaxation updates are being implemented which is good news for less parkade space.


But if we're talking SF homes... then don't tear down and build a new SF home in Vancouver proper. It's expensive, inefficient, and the City knows it's not the future of their concept of City Building.

As far as "taxes" are concerned, at a municipal level, I'm not sure they've increased that much beyond necessity and inflation to maintain current services and upgrades.

It just amazed me that were paying 2x what the rest of the country is paying in a city which should be easier to maintain (we don't get the heat waves and huge snowfall that other cities get which means less city services should be needed?). We should be facing similar problems to Toronto (we have similar housing prices) yet Toronto has managed to keep their government costs to half. I just don't get where it all goes.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

To be fair, a lot of programs funded by taxes go to social supports that you may never hear about, but make all the difference for those with lower incomes or disabilities or something like that.

Not fair at all.
I thought those should be paid for with other taxes, such as property and business taxes, just like any other cities in the world? Seems like our government is taking in a lot and not giving out much. Then you hear about wasteful spending and City workers getting all the benefits and fat paycheques......

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Vin

Not fair at all.
I thought those should be paid for with other taxes, such as property and business taxes, just like any other cities in the world? Seems like our government is taking in a lot and not giving out much. Then you hear about wasteful spending and City workers getting all the benefits and fat paycheques......

I actually think the idea that City workers are getting fat pay cheques is a misnomer.

They are more fairly compensated for cost of living here, and even then not always.

The often missed tragedy here are the measly wages and salaries that are paid in the private sector.

Apples to apples comparisons to Toronto are often pretty shocking.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by rofina

I actually think the idea that City workers are getting fat pay cheques is a misnomer.

They are more fairly compensated for cost of living here, and even then not always.

The often missed tragedy here are the measly wages and salaries that are paid in the private sector.

Apples to apples comparisons to Toronto are often pretty shocking.

This is always my answer too. It's not the government people that are paid unfairly well, it's the private sector people that are paid unfairly poorly.

[LeftCoaster]

City workers getting fat paycheques?

They are underpaid if anything.

[misher]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

City workers getting fat paycheques?

They are underpaid if anything.

It really depends. However they usually get inflationary increases which are difficult to get in some industries and I believe many have unions to help defend/negotiate? They also get vacation time which I am jealous of. I know in mine its hell to get an increase or take a vacation. I've been told city jobs are also much more relaxed and your expected to go at the same pace as the slowest person. But the salaries aren't necessarily as huge as the private sector.

[officedweller]

Blog post by Michael Geller:

So why are developers so keen to build unaffordable condos along the Broadway Corridor?
I hope this helps explain why.
http://gellersworldtravel.blogspot.com/2018/12/so-why-are-developers-so-keen-to-build.html